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PVW
Discussion: Impeachment: This Week - "Trümperdämmerung"

paulsurovell said:

PVW said:

Paul bringing up Biden shows he continues to conflate personal interests with those of the government. Biden did not withhold money as a means of pursuing a personal interest. Trump did. This subordination of the office of the presidency for personal reasons is the essential issue -- it is what the founders meant when they spoke of high crimes and misdemeanors -- and if Paul can't grasp this, then small wonder his posts get so much so wrong.

 There are three aspects to Biden in this:

(1) Biden's threaten to withhold funds on behalf of Obama matters because it shows that the President has the authority to demand a quid pro quo.

(2) You are correct that the President should not demand a quid pro quo for personal gain, which is what he appears to have done, although Zelensky was unaware and the funds were provided without any quo.

(3) One has to decide whether #2 is a High Crime. I don't think it is and I think #1 coupled with Hunter Biden's $50K per month job with a Ukrainian oligarch who was under investigation by the prosecutor Joe wanted fired makes it much more difficult to make the case politically.

 You persist in your misunderstanding of the term "high crimes and misdemeanors" and continue to miss the fact that it's the pursuit of personal interests that is the salient point here.

You say "the President has the authority to demand a quid pro quo." That's not what is at issue here, what is at issue is if a president can demand a quid pro quo for personal gain. He cannot.

You say that "Zelensky was unaware and the funds were provided without any quo." Reporting over the last month has shown this to be incorrect, and the funds were only released once Trump's scheme became public. The fact that Trump was thwarted in his corrupt scheme is no defense, and further, as Amb. Yovanovitch testified, Trump's actions have caused real damage to US interests despite Trump's eventually being forced to release the funds.

You say "One has to decide whether #2 is a High Crime." Again, you seem to not understand the meaning of the term "high crimes and misdemeanors." It refers to people in high office acting in a way contrary to their sworn duties. It does not mean, as you seem to think it does, some action with which you strongly disagree.

For instance, Trump cheating on his taxes, as we have strong reason to suspect he has done, is not a high crime or misdemeanor, though it very well may end up being a violation of the law. If we find out that Trump ordered IRS officials to cover up tax fraud on his part, that would be, as it would be the inappropriate use of his office for personal gain.

Or to make another example -- Trump launching a self-defeating trade war with China is not a high crime or misdemeanor. If we were to learn that he times his tweets in such a way as to take advantage of buying or selling stocks, that would be.

At issue is not whether the actions of a president are destructive or dangerous -- in a democracy, the people have the right to choose terrible policies, and the remedy for that is for the people to choose better at the next election. The issue is if the president is faithfully acting as a steward of his office, or if he is corruptly using the powers of his office in pursuit of his own interests. With Trump, the evidence is abundantly clear that he has been a faithless occupant of the office, and that is why he deserves impeachment.

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ml1
Discussion: ok, boomer

Klinker said:

 OK Boomer.....

Speaking as member of Gen X, I have to say that this thread is a laugh riot. I mean, if you want to know what the millennials are going on about, its all right here on proud display.

 It's interesting to me that so many analyses of the last election will look at the hollowing out of the middle class, the despair, the high rates of addiction and suicide and how people turned to Trump are presented n the context of middle aged white men.  It's a given that all those negative forces are weighing on them.  And the story is told sympathetically. But try to talk about the same hollowing out of the middle class, lack of opportunity, etc., etc. in the context of Millennials and these young people are a bunch of entitled whiners.  More reason for Millennials to resent Boomers.  If the story is about white Boomer men, we have to be sympathetic and understanding.  But if it's about Millennials, suck it up young people, and get to work.

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PVW
Discussion: Impeachment: This Week - "Trümperdämmerung"

Paul bringing up Biden shows he continues to conflate personal interests with those of the government. Biden did not withhold money as a means of pursuing a personal interest. Trump did. This subordination of the office of the presidency for personal reasons is the essential issue -- it is what the founders meant when they spoke of high crimes and misdemeanors -- and if Paul can't grasp this, then small wonder his posts get so much so wrong.

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BG9
Discussion: ok, boomer

STANV said:

 What did the previous generation leave us? You know, "The Greatest Generation".

The threat of nuclear holocaust, racial segregation, male supremacy, hatred of gay people. While the first may still exist I do not see people building fallout shelters. And while we may not have completely "overcome" the rest we "boomers" have certainly made a great deal of progress on those.

Boomers and the silent generation left us a beautiful house, our infrastructure. We've coasted on what was given us, not doing the needed maintenance.

Who also successfully fought and given us solutions to many diseases like smallpox, polio, measles, TB. But many, primarily the "newt" generations, are losing what was gotten. The stupidity of denying vaccines.

Many of the young complain about our aged political leadership. But senior voter turnout is about 50% vs their much lower rates. If they want their interest represented then vote, not just complain.

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cramer
Discussion: Impeachment: This Week - "Trümperdämmerung"

No sense going down another of Paul's rabbit holes. Just not worth it. 

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nohero
Discussion: Impeachment: This Week - "Trümperdämmerung"

paulsurovell said:

Among the thousands of people disparaged by the Prez who has been damaged by either the Prez or his millions of psychotic followers?

Here's an example: Tree of Life Synagogue.

Now go back to the Twitter where you'll find people who don't care that you post alternative facts.

 

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ridski
Discussion: 2020 - Candidates

ml1 said:

I guess if someone is looking for reasons to object to the GND that now-deleted document would suffice. I'd hope most people would base their opinions on the actual policy proposals. 

 Remember how people hated Obamacare but loved the ACA and all its individual provisions?

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jamie
Discussion: Impeachment: This Week - "Trümperdämmerung"

in all of this - Paul is green-lighting Trump and all future presidential candidates to suspend financial support to allies in exchange for publicly going on camera to announce the investigation into their opponent.  Censure will not deter this action in the future.

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max_weisenfeld
Discussion: Steam radiator question

The steam that would be released will also damage your wall and any human or animal that gets too close will be scalded.  It is quite dangerous. Like  2 Likes
mrincredible
Discussion: The Fun Facts thread

G'day mark,

It's Melbourne Australia and it was scientific established. I did you the kindness of looking up the citation.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1322240/

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