You Worry Me

I don't remember people making these qualifications during the hysteria.   I remember a lot of pretty strong assertions.   Did Adam Schiff ever stutter when making his claims?

BTW:  one of the mysteries of this whole thing is that Mueller never sought to speak with Assange.  I mean he knew where to find him.

Petulance in a politician is off putting. Schiff  never spoke on camera without this attitude of certitude and exasperation when presented with opposing opinions. He made himself into a figure for derision — cartoon-ready — but dangerous.
Hear that he is back at developing another impeachment strategy — to be ready for Trump’s second term?  Or, by Election Day?

terp said:

I don't remember people making these qualifications during the hysteria.   I remember a lot of pretty strong assertions.   Did Adam Schiff ever stutter when making his claims?

BTW:  one of the mysteries of this whole thing is that Mueller never sought to speak with Assange.  I mean he knew where to find him.

I'm going on recollection rather than go back through four years of posts, but it does seem accurate that a number of people here had been convinced Trump was working directly with Russian intelligence.  OTOH my recollection is that you (and nan and paulsurovell) flatly stated that there was zero evidence of questionable contact with the Trump campaign and Russians with government contacts.  And that there wasn't any cause for there to be an investigation.  My POV at the time, and I'm pretty sure anyone can find quotes from me, was that I believed there to be a near zero percent probability that Trump himself was involved with Russian intelligence agents, much less coordinating anything directly with Putin.  But I did think an investigation was warranted given the various people in the Trump orbit doing business in Russia, as well as the Trump Org's own stated reliance on Russian sources of capital.  And all along I was telling people like paul that unlike a lot of people who had their minds made up that either Trump was a Russian asset and guilty of treason and/or conspiracty, or people like him who already claimed to know there was zero evidence of anything, I was agnostic until the investigation was completed.

And in the end, Mueller did find lots of questionable activity going on between Russians and members of the Trump campaign.  It's just that none of it rose to the level of criminal conspiracy.  But that doesn't mean it wasn't unethical.  The infamous Trump Tower meeting did in fact happen.  And Jr himself admitted the purpose of the meeting.  Just because their contact never delivered the goods doesn't make it less shady or less deserving of investigation.

IMHO, the only conclusion to be drawn now is in between those two poles.  There in fact was questionable stuff going on, there should have been an investigation, BUT there were no criminal laws broken. I don't think the conclusion of the investigation at all vindicates the people who were and are still calling the entire investigation a hoax.  There turned out to be plenty of smoke even if there was no criminal fire underlying it.

mtierney said:

Petulance in a politician is off putting. Schiff  never spoke on camera without this attitude of certitude and exasperation when presented with opposing opinions. He made himself into a figure for derision — cartoon-ready — but dangerous.
Hear that he is back at developing another impeachment strategy — to be ready for Trump’s second term?  Or, by Election Day?

 Everyone I know considered Schiff to be a hero.Trump wanted to manipulate foreign aid to help him politically. Ukraine was invaded by Russia and was desperate for our help.

The Senate's failure to remove Trump has led to thousands of deaths because of his incompetence in handling the pandemic.

If there was nothing wrong with Flynn's interaction with the Russians why did he lie about it?

STANV said:

 Everyone I know considered Schiff to be a hero.Trump wanted to manipulate foreign aid to help him politically. Ukraine was invaded by Russia and was desperate for our help.

The Senate's failure to remove Trump has led to thousands of deaths because of his incompetence in handling the pandemic.

 we can generally count on mtierney to add a superficial observation to the discussion.

anyone who still thinks there was "zero evidence" against Trump can just read a little about the Trump Soho project, which had Ivanka and Jared doing business with Russian gangsters.  The problem isn't that Trump was being investigated for unlawful foreign contacts during the campaign, the scandal is that he was apparently not a figure of interest before. Another instance of the rich and famous acting with impunity. 

Trump’s Russian Laundromat 

How to use Trump Tower and other luxury high-rises to clean dirty money, run an international crime syndicate, and propel a failed real estate developer into the White House. 

ml1 said:

STANV said:

 Everyone I know considered Schiff to be a hero.Trump wanted to manipulate foreign aid to help him politically. Ukraine was invaded by Russia and was desperate for our help.

The Senate's failure to remove Trump has led to thousands of deaths because of his incompetence in handling the pandemic.

 we can generally count on mtierney to add a superficial observation to the discussion.

And with a generous helping of irony.  "Petulance in a politician is off putting."  Damn straight, and President Siht-for-Brains is the preeminent petulant politician. 

ml1 said:

 we can generally count on mtierney to add a superficial observation to the discussion.

 Superficial and just plain wrong. But this thread is about threats to freedom from the "security state". IMHO we ought to be concerned for threats to the freedom of ordinary citizens and threats to democracy from the Trump Administration and people like Flynn.  However even Flynn, when accused of a crime is entitled to the presumption of innocence. That presumption is overcome by a guilty verdict or a guilty plea.

STANV said:

 Superficial and just plain wrong. But this thread is about threats to freedom from the "security state". IMHO we ought to be concerned for threats to the freedom of ordinary citizens and threats to democracy from the Trump Administration and people like Flynn.  However even Flynn, when accused of a crime is entitled to the presumption of innocence. That presumption is overcome by a guilty verdict or a guilty plea.

 it's all wrapped up together.  When the PATRIOT Act was passed, I remember telling the MOL cons that nobody should be celebrating its passage, even if they wanted the Bush Admin to be hunting the "evildoers."  What happens when a Democratic president gets those powers, would you be celebrating then?  And Obama used all those powers, and even went a little further pursuing whistleblowers during his time in office.  Now after the executive branch incrementally moved toward more authoritarian practices, we have a real-live would-be dictator in office, and he's going far beyond in firing IGs and whistleblowers, and demanding personal loyalty throughout the executive branch.  It's exactly what a lot of people were predicting 15+ years ago.  

I thought this thread was about health protections (from the OP) -

terp said:

And why is this important now with Covid-19.  In the words of Rahm Emmanuel:  Never let a good crisis go to waste. What kinds of powers will the government grant itself now?  Will they ever see fit to relinquish them?  Will anyone hold them accountable?   It seems that the number of people willing to do this is getting smaller all the time.

nohero said:

I thought this thread was about health protections (from the OP) -

terp said:

And why is this important now with Covid-19.  In the words of Rahm Emmanuel:  Never let a good crisis go to waste. What kinds of powers will the government grant itself now?  Will they ever see fit to relinquish them?  Will anyone hold them accountable?   It seems that the number of people willing to do this is getting smaller all the time.

 

 Well it's about the threat to freedom posed by the government response to the pandemic. I find it difficult to imagine how the "stay at home" orders and compelled business closings can continue after the pandemic. But "The price of Liberty is eternal vigilance".

STANV said:

nohero said:

I thought this thread was about health protections (from the OP) -

terp said:

And why is this important now with Covid-19.  In the words of Rahm Emmanuel:  Never let a good crisis go to waste. What kinds of powers will the government grant itself now?  Will they ever see fit to relinquish them?  Will anyone hold them accountable?   It seems that the number of people willing to do this is getting smaller all the time.

 

 Well it's about the threat to freedom posed by the government response to the pandemic. I find it difficult to imagine how the "stay at home" orders and compelled business closings can continue after the pandemic. But "The price of Liberty is eternal vigilance".

I agree with the "eternal vigilance".  However, the discussion never did get back to detailing "the threat to freedom posed by the government response to the pandemic".  It was more of a rehash of old issues that had been discussed in other threads, mostly from memory.

mtierney said:

Petulance in a politician is off putting. Schiff  never spoke on camera without this attitude of certitude and exasperation when presented with opposing opinions. He made himself into a figure for derision — cartoon-ready — but dangerous.

 I know of a more local person who does this every single day.  I wouldn't exactly call them a politician in case that matters. 

mtierney said:

Petulance in a politician is off putting.

 Irony. Dead. Etc.

I want to commend terp on the tone of his replies -- I was expecting a more, ah, aggressive response -- maybe with asterisks. Quarantine mellowing you out? In any case, thanks, I appreciate it.

Not to pile on, but I appreciated terp's quoting what he was replying to so i didn't have to hunt it down.

PVW said:

I want to commend terp on the tone of his replies -- I was expecting a more, ah, aggressive response -- maybe with asterisks. Quarantine mellowing you out? In any case, thanks, I appreciate it.

I appreciate the apology. On the internets, that is a rare thing. 

drummerboy said:

 Irony. Dead. Etc.

 Petulance in a poster’s post is predictable.

Note: I have only been out of my house twice since 3/15. 

Is that Harry? How did he get up there?

mtierney said:

drummerboy said:

 Irony. Dead. Etc.

 Petulance in a poster’s post is predictable.

Note: I have only been out of my house twice since 3/15. 

 Someone needs to use a dictionary before posting.