Worst Racist of the Year award goes to a New Jerseyan. A police chief no less.

white people telling black people how much better things are with regard to racism. 

That's not helping. Why do we have such difficulty listening?

Great post, @flimbro. I'm glad you wrote it, but I'm sorry it was necessary.

I have not a clue what this means.

DaveSchmidt said:

If only the people who worried about climate change as an existential threat would acknowledge that there have been improvements and let progress take its course, despite the shocking influence of deniers in this day and age.

I guess you're right. after 50 years of anti-discrimination legislation and overwhelming changes in attitudes and behavior among both everyday people and institutions, nothing has actually changed, in fact, it might be even be worse, because you can still cite cases where things are quite bad.

That makes no sense.

flimbro said:

Same question- What kind of racism are we living through right now if not 'overt' and who decides what qualifies as progress for African Americans?

Although I'm sure your heart is in the right place, I'd suggest caution when taking on the task of deciding what and what isn't an improvement- for Black and brown people anyway. There's no chance of me being hobbled for running away from a plantation, but there is a real possibility that I will be shot at a traffic stop by a policemen who is 'afraid for his life'. And statistically there is an overwhelming possibility that the officer will go unpunished. Is that progress? To an outsider perhaps it is. For me, someone who was never in danger of being hobbled in the first place- no, it is not. It's simply a trade off, updated for the times we live in.  Instead of gauging my station based on standards from the 19th or even early 20th century, I choose to compare and contrast my life to what is or should be available to Black and brown people right now- this very moment.  

Now, if your examination concerns society as a whole and in a general sense your point is that we've all progressed because we no longer mail each other postcard pictures of lynchings, I would suggest that you search for and watch the footage of Philando Castille dying in front of his girlfriend and daughter. Which is worse- smiling congregants wearing straw bowlers in front of a charred and castrated corpse or listening to a woman narrate a murder as her man whimpers, bleeds out and dies with her baby crying in the back seat - or a man begging for breath as he's strangled to death on a dirty city sidewalk? 

Which one best exemplifies progress? Which one depicts the greatest distance from the way it used to be way back when those smoky lynching pictures were all the rage?


I choose to see the world as it is. I'd love to have the luxury of being shocked by a police chief ranting about how much he hates *******, but I know that there's nothing out of the ordinary about him and I know that he's only the current version- soon to be followed by another and another and another. And I know that feigning surprise at his ascension, as if our society wasn't built on precisely the sentiment that he verbalizes, is a weak, disingenuous and dangerous diversion that we all apply too often.

what am I supposed to do. go crawl into a corner because a black person challenges my beliefs? and is obviously wrong to boot?

Do you think there has been no progress in resolving racism in your lifetime?

ml1 said:

white people telling black people how much better things are with regard to racism. 

That's not helping. Why do we have such difficulty listening?

drummerboy said:

what am I supposed to do. go crawl into a corner because a black person challenges my beliefs? and is obviously wrong to boot?

Do you think there has been no progress in resolving racism in your lifetime?

ml1 said:

white people telling black people how much better things are with regard to racism. 

That's not helping. Why do we have such difficulty listening?

Maybe examine where you sit with regard to actually experiencing the 'progress' you're referring to and how that position may color your perception of what real progress looks and feels like. 

And for what it's worth, just so you're clear, my understanding of white racism and how it affects marginalized people will never be 'wrong'. 

maybe be a little more open to the fact that you may have something to learn from someone who lives with racism every day.

the more I listen and read stuff from white people, the more I'm not sure what progress we've made.  at least when I was a kid, polls didn't show substantial numbers of white people thinking there's more prejudice against white people than black people.  But that's now a thing.  We've wiped the literal discriminatory laws off the books, but segregation is still here.  And racist white people seem more emboldened than ever.  If black people don't think we've made much progress, or even any progress, I'm not inclined to disagree with that.

from my perspective, I think the issue of racism is one in which white people could benefit more from listening than in trying to give our opinions.  

drummerboy said:

what am I supposed to do. go crawl into a corner because a black person challenges my beliefs? and is obviously wrong to boot?

Do you think there has been no progress in resolving racism in your lifetime?

ml1 said:

white people telling black people how much better things are with regard to racism. 

That's not helping. Why do we have such difficulty listening?

this is surreal. All I'm saying is that race relations have gotten better in my lifetime. I can't think of a less controversial statement to make.

drummerboy said:

this is surreal. All I'm saying is that race relations have gotten better in my lifetime. I can't think of a less controversial statement to make.

.

drummerboy said:

I have not a clue what this means.

DaveSchmidt said:

If only the people who worried about climate change as an existential threat would acknowledge that there have been improvements and let progress take its course, despite the shocking influence of deniers in this day and age.

I thought I’d try to put progress, its shortcomings and its not so surprising impediments in terms that you might relate to more personally. The attempt failed.

Even your explanation doesn't help me.

I might be dumber than you think I am.

DaveSchmidt said:

drummerboy said:

I have not a clue what this means.

DaveSchmidt said:

If only the people who worried about climate change as an existential threat would acknowledge that there have been improvements and let progress take its course, despite the shocking influence of deniers in this day and age.

I thought I’d try to put progress, its shortcomings and its not so surprising impediments in terms that you might relate to more personally. The attempt failed.

.

.

the difference is that the effects are cumulative.  The rate is dropping, but we're still pumping CO2 into a semi-saturated atmosphere. It's not the rate that's most important. It's the absolute accumulated value.

Not sure that analogy works for racism. In fact, according to my own thoughts on racism, actual racism (the accumulated value) decreases in response to outside changes (the rate). The more that people and institutions behave in a non-racist manner, the more that racist behavior is marginalized and dies away.   And racism decreases in direct response to decreases in racist behavior. Kind of by definition.

Which is what I'm claiming has happened in my lifetime.

DaveSchmidt said:

.

@drummerboy, you're being obtuse. Try to learn something. It will be more valuable than making assertions.

@ml1, I'm sorry I never met you. I'm not even sure how that happened.

Tom_Reingold said:

@drummerboy, you're being obtuse. Try to learn something. It will be more valuable than making assertions.

@ml1, I'm sorry I never met you. I'm not even sure how that happened.

it would have been a pleasure. Not to say it still won't happen ;-)

I'm being obtuse?

I beg to differ. I'm stating the obvious in a pretty clear manner. Others are playing semantic games.

Tom_Reingold said:

@drummerboy, you're being obtuse. Try to learn something. It will be more valuable than making assertions.

@ml1, I'm sorry I never met you. I'm not even sure how that happened.

db: you black folks have it better than your ancestors did. You’re happy about that, right?

Flimbro: I am living a life you would deem intolerable for you, and you want me to smile and dance?

Or, put another way, suppose you had a slave and you made him sleep outside in the cold, naked. And he said, “dB master, your house is warm, May I stay with you?”

Would you tell him his father had even colder temperatures to suffer in? And ask him to rejoice in his auspicious luck?

drummerboy said:

.

As a black person, a gif of Pres. Obama winning the election is not the first image I would use to argue has racism has abated. Especially since some of us are being shot in our cars at traffic stops, in the back running away from the police, being choked for selling loose cigarettes, being hanged in our cells after an arrest for failure to signal a lane change, for brandishing a toy gun, yet the excuse being levied many times is “I feared for my life”. Worse still when mass murderss are taken by police alive and unhurt and treated to fast food (was it Wendy’s)? It’s not the same for us, so when we say that we don’t think race relations are better, trust us. That’s all we ask. Trust us when we tell you, they’re not much better, it’s just a different, more sophisticated kettle of fish.  

You're right. The rights and opportunities, the acceptance into society - none of that has changed in 50 years.

Do you folks understand that "things are better than they were" and "things still kinda suck" can both be true?

No one is saying blacks should be happy about the current state of racism. I certainly never did.

Most of the responses to me here have responded to things I never said or implied.

sheesh.

I'm saying that making your assertion is hurtful to many people, and you're entitled to feel it's true, but the act of saying it out loud is hurtful. You're still not getting that point.

See Ta-Nehisi Coates's recent comment about why white people shouldn't use the N-word. It's analogous. Basically, it's just a rude thing to do, and it's rude not to accept it as a rule. Grow up and grow some politeness hairs or whatever.

Ta-Nehisi Coates has an incredibly clear explanation for why white people shouldn’t use the n-word

exactly what assertion is hurtful? That things have gotten better?

And are you equating making that assertion with using the n-word?

We're so far down the rabbit-hole at this point....

ETA: it's a rule? since when? what's the rule?

Tom_Reingold said:

I'm saying that making your assertion is hurtful to many people, and you're entitled to feel it's true, but the act of saying it out loud is hurtful. You're still not getting that point.

See Ta-Nehisi Coates's recent comment about why white people shouldn't use the N-word. It's analogous. Basically, it's just a rude thing to do, and it's rude not to accept it as a rule. Grow up and grow some politeness hairs or whatever.

Yes, that's what I'm saying. Who here do you think will say I'm going overboard. If you didn't know that stepping on people's toes hurts and then someone told you that it hurts, would you continue doing it? Do you intend to keep doing it?

I'm telling you that you're doing something rude, and this is your response? You don't want to consider that I might be right? What do you intend to do?

drummerboy said:

I might be dumber than you think I am.

I'm being obtuse?

Others are playing semantic games.

I’ve been checkmated.

I understand your POV.  However, I would ask that rethink, or reconsider your metaphor (namely, "stepping on people's toes").  IMHO, it appears that you are NOT making a distinction between words (POV on racism - merely words)  and physical violence (namely, "stepping on people's toes" ).   Please correct me if my understanding is incomplete or wrong.

Yes, that's what I'm saying. Who here do you think will say I'm going overboard. If you didn't know that stepping on people's toes hurts and then someone told you that it hurts, would you continue doing it? Do you intend to keep doing it?

I'm telling you that you're doing something rude, and this is your response? You don't want to consider that I might be right? What do you intend to do?

Who's toes were stepped on. flimbro? I'm thinking he's a big boy and can handle it. I don't remember readin any post here complaining that my position was hurtful. Where do yo9u get that from?

I just need to get this straight - you are saying that talking about advancements in race relations in the past 50 years is now a verboten subject?

AYFKM?

How is talking about history rude? WTF????

Point out to me, specifically, the rude part of any of my posts.

Tom_Reingold said:

Yes, that's what I'm saying. Who here do you think will say I'm going overboard. If you didn't know that stepping on people's toes hurts and then someone told you that it hurts, would you continue doing it? Do you intend to keep doing it?

I'm telling you that you're doing something rude, and this is your response? You don't want to consider that I might be right? What do you intend to do?

I've pointed it out already, and you're as obtuse as before. So now I see you won't comprehend my point. OK, fine. I'm done. You'll be just as surprised when you insult someone next time, and you won't blame yourself then, either. I hope you mature eventually, but tonight isn't your time.

And you called a black man a boy.