The Rose Garden and White House happenings: Listening to voters’ concerns
gerritn said:
So we are supposed to listen to criticism from the right and take it to heart and go into counseling with the Trump rural voters to get our groove back?
Just to put this into perspective, when the Republicans lost badly in 2008 (WH + Senate + House), you know what they did? Did they go on listening tours and listen to the criticism from the left and took it to heart etc.? No. They went and obstructed Obama at every turn, they stole a Supreme Court Seat, they gerrymandered the hell out of our election map and stole as many local and house seats as they could, and then they stole the WH (if you go by the popular vote). So they did exactly the opposite of what they are now advising us to do. No thanks.
It was after either 2008 or 2012 that the Republicans conducted what they called a postmortem.
Their conclusion: They needed to reach out to Hispanics.
Then Trump began his campaign with a speech attacking Mexican immigrants. And he is President.
Go figure.
LOST said:
gerritn said:It was after either 2008 or 2012 that the Republicans conducted what they called a postmortem.
So we are supposed to listen to criticism from the right and take it to heart and go into counseling with the Trump rural voters to get our groove back?
Just to put this into perspective, when the Republicans lost badly in 2008 (WH + Senate + House), you know what they did? Did they go on listening tours and listen to the criticism from the left and took it to heart etc.? No. They went and obstructed Obama at every turn, they stole a Supreme Court Seat, they gerrymandered the hell out of our election map and stole as many local and house seats as they could, and then they stole the WH (if you go by the popular vote). So they did exactly the opposite of what they are now advising us to do. No thanks.
Their conclusion: They needed to reach out to Hispanics.
Then Trump began his campaign with a speech attacking Mexican immigrants. And he is President.
Go figure.
Republicans never apologize, they never change course, they never move to the "center." They move further right. They double down. Even after they lose. But the pundits are always telling liberals to apologize, move to the center, don't be so "shrill." Bad, foolish advice. Voters don't want wishy-washy politicians who are afraid to stand for something. The way to win elections is not to grovel to the people who didn't vote for you last time. Energizing your own base is the way to win. The GOP demonstrates this every time.
Again, the pundits concern trolling liberals.
ml1 said:
Again, the pundits concern trolling liberals.
They can pundit all they want, it is not going to work this time.
A successful political campaign should seek some converts but never forget to energize its base. Turnout is almost always key.
How to win and how to address 63 million* Americans who voted for Trump aren’t necessarily the same question.
*Klinker, when you think through what it means to either steamroll them or wall them off, what do you conclude?
LOST said:
As usual Ridski nails it!
Indeed he does, as the narrative could describe the perpetual inner city malaise that Republicans seem to ignore and Democrats do nothing about.
lord_pabulum said:
LOST said:Indeed he does, as the narrative could describe the perpetual inner city malaise that Republicans seem to ignore and democrats do nothing about.
As usual Ridski nails it!
Indeed. In the end, though, it's worth noting that neither Romney nor Clinton actually became president.
DaveSchmidt said:
ml1 said:This is only a glancing example, because the poster wasn’t a Trump supporter, but he did start off early in an MOL discussion saying this:
Or are liberals supposed to be concerned that accusing Trump supporters of racism will harden their support for Trump? If that's the case were these voters reachable in any real sense?
I don't know, maybe because this whole thread is about how the black man is victimized but never about how a white man can be victimized by a black man. All acts by a white person must be racist but if a black person commits a crime against a white person it's just life. Oh well ***,happens.
Why can't I mention their race?
https://maplewood.worldwebs.com/forums/discussion/colin-kaepernick-files-collusion-grievence?page=next&limit=
Look at the way you and flimbro handled the conversation, and where the poster ended up with you two, and contrast it with his responses to those who took, let’s say, the deplorable approach. There was a difference in both means and ends. That seems worth at least a little concern.
thanks. I had forgotten about that.
lord_pabulum said:
LOST said:Indeed he does, as the narrative could describe the perpetual inner city malaise that Republicans seem to ignore and democrats do nothing about.
As usual Ridski nails it!
"Malaise" is an odd way to describe it.
ridski said:
Progress.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-44133308
But Trump is already planning his VK Day Parade!
Klinker said:
ridski said:But Trump is already planning his VK Day Parade!
Progress.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-44133308
Not to worry. No matter what. The Mission Accomplished victory parade can still take place.
Trump's believers will continue to believe. Truth and fact are fungible.
there are many astute posters here who might be of a mind to discuss this topic of interest and concern in America. Without political biases. I grew up in a penny candy store in Brooklyn (pre-Social Security) in the aftermath of the Great Depression and really never met a rich kid until I was in high school. Rich was then defined as a family who owned an automobile and lived in an apartment in which no one slept on the couch.
I am currently in the world of home health caregivers. These people are an example of the working poor we hear about. Their struggle to do the tough work of caring for the sick has shown me the pride they have in having a job and the dignity of work. The adage about “teaching a person to fish.....” is true.
Look around your town or your city and you will see there is much work to be done.
So where are we on healthcare? Of course when (dare I say it? black) Obama tried it he was the devil reincarnate. But now that the good old White Republicans are in full control, how are we doing with making health care affordable? What is going on? I cannot wait to hear about it!
Progress. Trump throws his senior advisor under the bus and sends clear message that he's simultaneously desperate and clueless.
DaveSchmidt said:
lord_pabulum said:America is broadly racist. As long as we recoil at being called on it, it’s not going to be much of a conversation.
I think calling a group of people racist or deplorable is worse than being called a snowflake. So the scores of articles fail to be a warning to the Trump opposition that perhaps 'broadly' calling a group of people racist will drive potential supporters away from even having a conversation about progressive ideas.
Has the US made any improvements with regards race and racism in the last 30 or 50 years?
Looks like it to me.
Tell me which G7 country has less significantly less racism?
Is racism not a form of tribalism?
Tribalism is an evolutionary feature we no longer need. IMHO, it appears that because racism is a component of an evolutionary feature (namely, tribalism) that it is almost impossible to eliminate it entirely.
RealityForAll said:
Is racism not a form of tribalism?
Tribalism is an evolutionary feature we no longer need. IMHO, it appears that because racism is a component of an evolutionary feature (namely, tribalism) that it is almost impossible to eliminate it entirely.
FYI and FWIW, an alternative view.
But when it comes to defining this enemy--defining the "out group"--people are very flexible. The out group can be defined by its language, its religion, its skin color, its jersey color. (And jersey color can trump skin color--just watch a brawl between one racially integrated sports team and another.) It all depends on which group we consider (rightly or wrongly) in some sense threatening to our interests.
It's in this sense that race is a "social construct." It's not a category that's inherently correlated with our patterns of fear or mistrust or hatred, though, obviously, it can become one. So it's within our power to construct a society in which race isn't a meaningful construct.
https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2012/10/new-evidence-that-racism-isnt-natural/263785/
RealityForAll said:
DaveSchmidt said:Has the US made any improvements with regards race and racism in the last 30 or 50 years?
America is broadly racist. As long as we recoil at being called on it, it’s not going to be much of a conversation.
Looks like it to me.
Tell me which G7 country has less significantly less racism?
Is racism not a form of tribalism?
Tribalism is an evolutionary feature we no longer need. IMHO, it appears that because racism is a component of an evolutionary feature (namely, tribalism) that it is almost impossible to eliminate it entirely.
Those questions may pique your interest, but I don’t see how they follow from my statement. Whatever gains have been made, and steps taken backward, in the last half-century; whatever industrialized nation wins the Bedford Forrest Prize; whatever there is in human wiring that gives someone the idea we should tolerate what we can’t eliminate — America remains broadly racist, and as long as we recoil (or get sidetracked) from being called on it, it’s not going to be much of a conversation.
DaveSchmidt said:
RealityForAll said:Those questions may pique your interest, but I don’t see how they follow from my statement. Whatever gains have been made, and steps taken backward, in the last half-century; whatever industrialized nation wins the Bedford Forrest Prize; whatever there is in human wiring that gives someone the idea we should tolerate what we can’t eliminate — America remains broadly racist, and as long as we recoil (or get sidetracked) from being called on it, it’s not going to be much of a conversation.
DaveSchmidt said:Has the US made any improvements with regards race and racism in the last 30 or 50 years?
America is broadly racist. As long as we recoil at being called on it, it’s not going to be much of a conversation.
Looks like it to me.
Tell me which G7 country has less significantly less racism?
Is racism not a form of tribalism?
Tribalism is an evolutionary feature we no longer need. IMHO, it appears that because racism is a component of an evolutionary feature (namely, tribalism) that it is almost impossible to eliminate it entirely.
Help me along and provide all of us with your definition of racism. As far as I can tell the definition of racism continues to change.
RealityForAll said:
Help me along and provide all of us with your definition of racism. As far as I can tell the definition of racism continues to change.
First, give me your definition of air. Not Merriam-Webster’s, Wikipedia’s or something from one of your other favorite online sources. Just a few words from you to encapsulate, in all its forms and effects, something that’s all around us.
Come on, RFA. You’re not really looking for me to help you along.
DaveSchmidt said:
RealityForAll said:First, give me your definition of air. Not Merriam-Webster’s, Wikipedia’s or something from one of your other favorite online sources. Just a few words from you to encapsulate, in all its forms and effects, something that’s all around us.
Help me along and provide all of us with your definition of racism. As far as I can tell the definition of racism continues to change.
Come on, RFA. You’re not really looking for me to help you along.
Sorry to hear that you are unwilling to provide a definition of racism. It is incredibly difficult to combat something that is difficult to define (or has many alternative definitions).
Americans experiencing the pointy end of racism can give you a pretty good definition of it, as a lived experience, if you actually care to listen.
If all the folks protesting police brutality directed at people of color, if all the stories folks share about being profiled and followed by security guards just for walking into a shop, if all the essays and documentaries and histories of topics like redlining and job discrimination and school segregation have failed to help you come to a "definition of racism," then I'm not sure any words posted on MOL are going to do it.
RealityForAll said:
DaveSchmidt said:Sorry to hear that you are unwilling to provide a definition of racism. It is incredibly difficult to combat something that is difficult to define (or has many alternative definitions).
RealityForAll said:First, give me your definition of air. Not Merriam-Webster’s, Wikipedia’s or something from one of your other favorite online sources. Just a few words from you to encapsulate, in all its forms and effects, something that’s all around us.
Help me along and provide all of us with your definition of racism. As far as I can tell the definition of racism continues to change.
Come on, RFA. You’re not really looking for me to help you along.
Are you saying you can't identify racism when you see it?
Are you blind and deaf and with no functioning brain?
Perhaps it's like what Justice Stewart said about obscenity. You can't define it but you know it when you see it.
Racism is hating someone solely because of his race or believing one race to be inherently inferior morally and/or intellectually to another and acting on that hatred or belief .
DaveSchmidt said:
Come on, RFA. You’re not really looking for me to help you along.
Someone should help him along. The dude is tail-dragging.
drummerboy said:
RealityForAll said:Are you saying you can't identify racism when you see it?
DaveSchmidt said:Sorry to hear that you are unwilling to provide a definition of racism. It is incredibly difficult to combat something that is difficult to define (or has many alternative definitions).
RealityForAll said:First, give me your definition of air. Not Merriam-Webster’s, Wikipedia’s or something from one of your other favorite online sources. Just a few words from you to encapsulate, in all its forms and effects, something that’s all around us.
Help me along and provide all of us with your definition of racism. As far as I can tell the definition of racism continues to change.
Come on, RFA. You’re not really looking for me to help you along.
Are you blind and deaf and with no functioning brain?
DB, have you ever considered why you have so quickly assumed negative intentions regarding my question on the definition of racism? Based on the tone and words used in your post, I can only conclude that you have quickly jumped to a conclusion about me (which is wrong). You do not know me.
Of course, I can identify what I believe is racism. What I was attempting to do was tease out the definition of racism. Clearly, I can go to the various dictionaries for such a definition. But, I do not believe that the dictionary definition is what has been adopted by many on MOL. Just for the record, I oppose prejudice and discrimination in all its forms (especially when it is based on the idea that one's own race is superior).
Most people acknowledge that the definition of racism has changed over time (hence, the request for a definition from DaveSchmidt). I asked a legitimate question and your response was a rhetorical question (my ability to identify racism was not what was in question) and an ad hominem attack. It is hard to see how we can discuss race and racism civilly if this is the kind of response that is provided by merely asking a question regarding a definition of racism (the evil to be combated).
Maybe it's time to post this here again:
excuse me for being out of touch with this thread’s present focus on what defines racism — but how and why is any nation’s desire for sovereignty and the protection of its borders necessarily translate to racism? I am assuming that illegal and legal immigration is at the core of the discussion.
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As usual Ridski nails it!