The Rose Garden and White House happenings: Listening to voters’ concerns
HRC ran a poor campaign
HRC called Americans a basket of Deplorables
HRC Commented “what difference does it make” during the Benghazi hearings
HRC lied about her emails
She is most to blame for her failure to win in 2016
Analyze her
The episode of Roseann which I DVRd and watched last night says more about the thinking of Trump voters, the source of that thinking, and they way to counter that thinking than just about all the articles by the punditry. And thankfully millions more Trump voters and non-Trump voters and anti-Trumpers watched that TV show than will ever read any of those articles.
In fact while it's just as stupid to stereotype "liberals" as to stereotype other groups the one trait most liberals share is propensity to read supposedly intellectual articles critical of liberals.
mtierney said:
HRC ran a poor campaign
HRC called Americans a basket of Deplorables
HRC Commented “what difference does it make” during the Benghazi hearings
HRC lied about her emails
She is most to blame for her failure to win in 2016
Analyze her
Oh my, there we go again.
Well, if it makes you feel any better, we have already that lesson to heart: BREAKING NEWS! HRC won't run for any office in 2018 or 2020! You heard it here first!
Meanwhile, please excuse us if we focus our attention to making sure we defeat your immoral candidates in 2018 and 2020.
mtierney said:
HRC ran a poor campaign
HRC called Americans a basket of Deplorables
HRC Commented “what difference does it make” during the Benghazi hearings
HRC lied about her emails
She is most to blame for her failure to win in 2016
Analyze her
A loser is always blamed for running a bad campaign. And Mrs. Clinton won the popular vote by 3 million.
You continue to take that quote out of context and to misinterpret it.
The e-mail issue was blown way out of proportion but if she lied why was that more fatal than all the lies Trump told?
People like you are most to blame for Trump's election and while you probably won't even understand what I am about to say, You should try analyzing yourself.
drummerboy said:
Yeah, I'd like to hear what "post-Trump criticisms from the right" that we've been ignoring because we're not tough enough to take them.
Nobody said they were ignored. Rejection is a form of acknowledgment. “Tough enough to take to heart,” however, implies something more than dismissal. It suggests an acceptance that, yes, the criticism has some merit, and a willingness to do something about it.
Ml1 pointed to Robert Wuthnow’s determination to better understand rural voters; that’s one example, but when liberals seem to take it to heart, they’re just as likely to get grief from the kind of liberals Alexander had in mind.
What valid criticism, ml1 asked, are liberals, in general, rejecting? To paraphrase a headline, and to put a cap on my questions: Liberals aren’t as open to criticism as they think.
DaveSchmidt said:
drummerboy said:Nobody said they were ignored. Rejection is a form of acknowledgment. “Tough enough to take to heart,” however, implies something more than dismissal. It suggests an acceptance that, yes, the criticism has some merit, and a willingness to do something about it.
Yeah, I'd like to hear what "post-Trump criticisms from the right" that we've been ignoring because we're not tough enough to take them.
That still leaves Mr. Drummerboy's question unanswered. What specific criticisms have been ignored/rejected/whatever, instead of being accepted?
So we are supposed to listen to criticism from the right and take it to heart and go into counseling with the Trump rural voters to get our groove back?
Just to put this into perspective, when the Republicans lost badly in 2008 (WH + Senate + House), you know what they did? Did they go on listening tours and listen to the criticism from the left and took it to heart etc.? No. They went and obstructed Obama at every turn, they stole a Supreme Court Seat, they gerrymandered the hell out of our election map and stole as many local and house seats as they could, and then they stole the WH (if you go by the popular vote). So they did exactly the opposite of what they are now advising us to do. No thanks.
DaveSchmidt said:
Liberals aren’t as open to criticism as they think.
without examples of what those criticisms are, how are we supposed to respond? And beyond that, where's the evidence that conservatives, or moderates, or libertarians, or anyone else is any more open to criticism than liberals are?
It's painting with at least as broad a brush (imho) than anything most liberals are accused of doing. It's really absurd that someone like Alexander has a bug up his *** about liberals tarring all conservatives with the same brush in a column called "Liberals, You're Not as Smart as You Think." Seriously? Are there no mirrors at the University of Virginia?
ml1 said:
DaveSchmidt said:without examples of what those criticisms are, how are we supposed to respond? And beyond that, where's the evidence that conservatives, or moderates, or libertarians, or anyone else is any more open to criticism than liberals are?
Liberals aren’t as open to criticism as they think.
You made a comparison, not I, by stating that maybe liberals are the tough ones.
Two criticisms have been raised as examples: one by you, via Wuthnow, and one by me, in my previous post.
I don’t think I have anything to prove, and have said my piece. If you (or anyone) wants to give evidence of how liberals are the tough ones when it comes to taking criticism, I’ll be listening.
mtierney said:
HRC called Americans a basket of Deplorables
I'm no HRC supporter but she called TRUMP SUPPORTERS deplorable and, from Charlottesville to MOL y'all have spent the last two years proving that she was absolutely correct.
The conflation of Trump supporters with Americans is particularly offensive. I can't think of anyone more un American than a Trump supporter. My grandfather spent 3 years fighting the Nazis and these deplorables stuck one in the White House.
Denial is a river in Egypt — -and an ocean in MOLand.
Recall for a moment that Trump beat 17 wanabees to land the GOP nomination. Then he beat HRC — partially due to Bernie’s shakeup —and still the whiners continue to doubt the election result.
To call fellow Americans unAmerican for voting their choice is, dare I say , truly unAmerican and hateful.
DaveSchmidt said:
You made a comparison, not I, by stating that maybe liberals are the tough ones.
Two criticisms have been raised as examples: one by you, via Wuthnow, and one by me, in my previous post.
I don’t think I have anything to prove, and have said my piece. If you (or anyone) wants to give evidence of how liberals are the tough ones when it comes to taking criticism, I’ll be listening.
I thought the comparison was obvious. There are scores of articles scolding liberals for driving conservatives into the arms of Donald Trump because they insulted them. I don't know of anyone trying to make the case that liberals voted for Hillary Clinton, or anyone out of a fit of pique because conservatives said mean things about them.
or the other possibility is that the entire premise is bogus, and no conservatives' voting preferences are being driven by their wounded feelings.
mtierney said:
To call fellow Americans unAmerican for voting their choice is, dare I say , truly unAmerican and hateful.
Think of those poor National Socialists who's tender feelings were hurt when people suggested that they were not good Germans.
mtierney said:
Denial is a river in Egypt
You can cry me a river. You voted for a man who thinks white supremacists are good people and in doing so you soiled your soul.
ml1 said:
I thought the comparison was obvious. There are scores of articles scolding liberals for driving conservatives into the arms of Donald Trump because they insulted them. I don't know of anyone trying to make the case that liberals voted for Hillary Clinton, or anyone out of a fit of pique because conservatives said mean things about them.
That’d be the argument for liberals maybe being the ones tough enough to rise above criticism. Which sometimes goes by other names.
ml1 said:
DaveSchmidt said:I thought the comparison was obvious. There are scores of articles scolding liberals for driving conservatives into the arms of Donald Trump because they insulted them. I don't know of anyone trying to make the case that liberals voted for Hillary Clinton, or anyone out of a fit of pique because conservatives said mean things about them.
You made a comparison, not I, by stating that maybe liberals are the tough ones.
Two criticisms have been raised as examples: one by you, via Wuthnow, and one by me, in my previous post.
I don’t think I have anything to prove, and have said my piece. If you (or anyone) wants to give evidence of how liberals are the tough ones when it comes to taking criticism, I’ll be listening.
or the other possibility is that the entire premise is bogus, and no conservatives' voting preferences are being driven by their wounded feelings.
I think calling a group of people racist or deplorable is worse than being called a snowflake. So the scores of articles fail to be a warning to the Trump opposition that perhaps 'broadly' calling a group of people racist will drive potential supporters away from even having a conversation about progressive ideas.
lord_pabulum said:
I think calling a group of people racist or deplorable is worse than being called a snowflake. So the scores of articles fail to be a warning to the Trump opposition that perhaps 'broadly' calling a group of people racist will drive potential supporters away from even having a conversation about progressive ideas.
America is broadly racist. As long as we recoil at being called on it, it’s not going to be much of a conversation.
DaveSchmidt said:
lord_pabulum said:America is broadly racist. If people recoil at being called on it, it’s not going to be much of a conversation.
I think calling a group of people racist or deplorable is worse than being called a snowflake. So the scores of articles fail to be a warning to the Trump opposition that perhaps 'broadly' calling a group of people racist will drive potential supporters away from even having a conversation about progressive ideas.
This is true.
And I still am not getting the logic. People who aren't currently supporters of Trump will turn to him because people are calling those who do support Trump racists? It makes no sense to me.
Or are liberals supposed to be concerned that accusing Trump supporters of racism will harden their support for Trump? If that's the case were these voters reachable in any real sense?
But I think most of us will stipulate that broadly stereotyping large groups of people is wrong, and frankly not smart.
ml1 said:
Conservatives’ ludicrous new excuse: Liberals made us vote for Donald Trump!
Liberals with heads in the sand: We didn't do anything wrong to make them vote for Trump
ml1 said:
Or are liberals supposed to be concerned that accusing Trump supporters of racism will harden their support for Trump? If that's the case were these voters reachable in any real sense?
This is only a glancing example, because the poster wasn’t a Trump supporter, but he did start off early in an MOL discussion saying this:
I don't know, maybe because this whole thread is about how the black man is victimized but never about how a white man can be victimized by a black man. All acts by a white person must be racist but if a black person commits a crime against a white person it's just life. Oh well ***,happens.
Why can't I mention their race?
Look at the way you and flimbro handled the conversation, and where the poster ended up with you two, and contrast it with his responses to those who took, let’s say, the deplorable approach. There was a difference in both means and ends. That seems worth at least a little concern.
lord_pabulum said:Liberals with heads in the sand: We didn't do anything wrong to make them vote for Trump
The people who voted for Trump after Access Hollywood are morally compromised. We can't save them and we shouldn't try. The only solution is to simply turn out more voters. Bury the evil with good.
lord_pabulum said:
ml1 said:Liberals with heads in the sand: We didn't do anything wrong to make them vote for Trump
Conservatives’ ludicrous new excuse: Liberals made us vote for Donald Trump!
More than a bit condescending to suggest that those voters can't think or act for themselves.
dave23 said:
lord_pabulum said:More than a bit condescending to suggest that those voters can't think or act for themselves.
ml1 said:Liberals with heads in the sand: We didn't do anything wrong to make them vote for Trump
Conservatives’ ludicrous new excuse: Liberals made us vote for Donald Trump!
Apparently not, they are deplorable after all. As Klinker says "The people who voted for Trump after Access Hollywood are morally compromised", of course that's not condescending at all.
lord_pabulum said:Apparently not, they are deplorable after all. As Klinker says "The people who voted for Trump after Access Hollywood are morally compromised", of course that's not condescending at all.
I do consider the white nationalists (Trump supporters, conservatives) to be deplorable. (I imagine we disagree on that.) And I agree supporting Trump after hearing him brag about assaulting women does require some moral compromise. (Again, I'm sure you feel otherwise.)
But in neither case do I suggest that they couldn't make those decisions for themselves. They went into the voting booth fully informed of who Trump is and chose him. That's the opposite of saying that someone (liberals, in your argument) made "them vote for Trump."
And they stick with him. No one is making Republicans and conservatives support Trump, yet they continue to, at about 80%. Blame others all you want, but they are responsible for themselves.
lord_pabulum said:
dave23 said:Apparently not, they are deplorable after all. As Klinker says "The people who voted for Trump after Access Hollywood are morally compromised", of course that's not condescending at all.
lord_pabulum said:More than a bit condescending to suggest that those voters can't think or act for themselves.
ml1 said:Liberals with heads in the sand: We didn't do anything wrong to make them vote for Trump
Conservatives’ ludicrous new excuse: Liberals made us vote for Donald Trump!
Its not condescending. It is condemnatory.
These people have $h@t their own beds and now they are going to have to lie in the filth. Sure, perhaps we could peel off some of them if we were willing to stick our knives in the backs of people of color and immigrants but to do so would only damage both our electoral futures and our souls. The only path that can ethically be built forward is either over them or around them.
lord_pabulum said:
dave23 said:Apparently not, they are deplorable after all. As Klinker says "The people who voted for Trump after Access Hollywood are morally compromised", of course that's not condescending at all.
lord_pabulum said:More than a bit condescending to suggest that those voters can't think or act for themselves.
ml1 said:Liberals with heads in the sand: We didn't do anything wrong to make them vote for Trump
Conservatives’ ludicrous new excuse: Liberals made us vote for Donald Trump!
"There are 47 percent of the people who will vote for the president no matter what. All right, there are 47 percent who are with him, who are dependent upon government, who believe that they are victims, who believe the government has a responsibility to care for them, who believe that they are entitled to health care, to food, to housing, to you-name-it. That that's an entitlement. And the government should give it to them. And they will vote for this president no matter what.
"And I mean the president starts out with 48, 49 percent … he starts off with a huge number. These are people who pay no income tax. Forty-seven percent of Americans pay no income tax. So our message of low taxes doesn’t connect. So he’ll be out there talking about tax cuts for the rich. I mean, that’s what they sell every four years. And so my job is is not to worry about those people. I’ll never convince them that they should take personal responsibility and care for their lives."
Vs.
"I know there are only 60 days left to make our case -- and don't get complacent, don't see the latest outrageous, offensive, inappropriate comment and think, well, he's done this time. We are living in a volatile political environment. You know, to just be grossly generalistic, you could put half of Trump's supporters into what I call the basket of deplorables. Right? The racist, sexist, homophobic, xenophobic, Islamaphobic -- you name it. And unfortunately there are people like that. And he has lifted them up. He has given voice to their websites that used to only have 11,000 people -- now 11 million. He tweets and retweets their offensive hateful mean-spirited rhetoric. Now, some of those folks -- they are irredeemable, but thankfully they are not America.
"But the other basket -- and I know this because I see friends from all over America here -- I see friends from Florida and Georgia and South Carolina and Texas -- as well as, you know, New York and California -- but that other basket of people are people who feel that the government has let them down, the economy has let them down, nobody cares about them, nobody worries about what happens to their lives and their futures, and they're just desperate for change. It doesn't really even matter where it comes from. They don't buy everything he says, but he seems to hold out some hope that their lives will be different. They won't wake up and see their jobs disappear, lose a kid to heroin, feel like they're in a dead-end. Those are people we have to understand and empathize with as well."
Emphasis mine, because for some reason that emphasis seems misplaced. Two different candidates, both talking about an unreachable electorate. Only one thought about actually reaching out to the disaffected on the other side, the other claimed it wasn't his job to worry about them, even if they were Republican voters.
ridski said:He tweets and retweets their offensive hateful mean-spirited rhetoric. Now, some of those folks -- they are irredeemable, but thankfully they are not America.
The part mtierney misses every single time.
Klinker said:
ridski said:The part mtierney misses every single time.
He tweets and retweets their offensive hateful mean-spirited rhetoric. Now, some of those folks -- they are irredeemable, but thankfully they are not America.
She doesn't even say that they are all irredeemable.
ETA: The whole point of that speech was that everyone deserves to be listened to, outside of a small group of bigots who have become emboldened by Trump's candidacy.
Romney seemed to think that if you weren't making enough money - regardless of party affiliation - to be paying income tax, you were a loser who didn't need to be listened to.
In the end, they were both right and wrong, Romney more wrong than right, as his speech conflated two completely separate demographics. In 2016, Clinton and Trump both talked about plans for the future of the American Working Classes: Clinton said she wanted to retrain people for new manufacturing jobs; Trump said he wanted to give people their old jobs back. Neither of them really had jobs for people to do, however, but the promise of having what you had is always stronger than the fear of the unknown.
Rentals
-
Huge Brand New construction Apartment in 2 family home with 4 bedrooms 3 bathrooms
4 Bd | 3Full Ba
$4,500
For Sale
-
REVO luggage $100
More info
Yeah, I'd like to hear what "post-Trump criticisms from the right" that we've been ignoring because we're not tough enough to take them.