Was Rep. Ilhan Omar being anti-semitic?
nan said:
After watching this 4-part video, The Lobby, https://www.aljazeera.com/investigations/thelobby/
I agree that they should have to register as a foreign agent. They have way too much influence.
I recommend watching this video also (and I'm hardly in the habit of recommending one of nan's videos)
It has the added advantage of making Alan Dershowitz have a panic attack over it.
cramer said:One of the stated goals of the BDS movement is establishing a right of return for Palestinians throughout the world. In practical terms, this would result in Jews being in the minority in Israel, and its end as a Jewish state.
One of the founders of the BDS movement, Omar Barghouti, has explicity stated "We definitely oppose a Jewish state in any part of Palestine."
I suggest that anyone who is interested in the subject of Antisemitism read the new book by Deborah Lipstadt - "Antisemitism: Here and Now."
Most people who say they "support BDS" assume it's just a protest against Israel's occupation of the West Bank. On a recent video, Jimmy Dore said something like "BDS is a way to support the two-state solution."
Unfortunately, the formal BDS proposal, as Cramer points out, includes a demand for the Right of Return of Palestinians whose land and homes were confiscated (stolen) when Israel was created in 1948. The decendants of those who lost property in 1948, would also be allowed to "return" to what is now Israeli under the Right of Return -- somewhere around 4 and 5 million people.
Morally, Right of Return advocates have a point, but from the point of view of what is possible in the real world, the Right of Return is a poison pill for what otherwise might be a valid way to protest Israel's illegal occupation and the human rights violations that it carries out daily.
Advocates for a two-state solution have called for a Palestinian state based on the 1967 borders of Israel (but modified with land swaps by both sides), with reparations paid to those who lost their property, and the right of all Palestinians to "return" to the Palestinian state.
I've always regarded the literal Right of Return as a call for the destruction of Israel (as a Jewish state per the 1948 UN partition plan) and thus an obstacle to peace. Netanyahu's Likud Party, and other extreme right-wing Israelis love the Right of Return demand, because it enables them to effectively argue that Palestinians don't want peace, they want to destroy Israel.
There are a couple of long threads (among others) on this topic if anyone is interested:
drummerboy said:That's one discussion, sure. But since the dominant theme in any of these dust-ups is that support for Israel is widespread and bi-partisan because we need Israel in the ME (and, by implication, that support is not driven by lobbying influence, whether it be financial or otherwise), it's incumbent upon those people making the claim to also explain why we need them. That discussion will by necessity include what they think our interests are.
But the ball is in their court, not mine.
You made the claim that no one has attempted to explain how our alliance with Israel serves our ME interests. Your ball, your court, no?
I mean, I can list what I see as our interests in the ME, and where i see our alliance with Israel furthering or hindering those, but unless you agree with my list of interests that's going to be a frustrating and pointless discussion, isn't it? Meanwhile, you've gone a step beyond and claimed that the alliance does not serve our interests but, again, if I don't know what you consider our interests to be, how can I possibly either agree or disagree?
PVW said:
drummerboy said:You made the claim that no one has attempted to explain how our alliance with Israel serves our ME interests. Your ball, your court, no?
That's one discussion, sure. But since the dominant theme in any of these dust-ups is that support for Israel is widespread and bi-partisan because we need Israel in the ME (and, by implication, that support is not driven by lobbying influence, whether it be financial or otherwise), it's incumbent upon those people making the claim to also explain why we need them. That discussion will by necessity include what they think our interests are.
But the ball is in their court, not mine.
I mean, I can list what I see as our interests in the ME, and where i see our alliance with Israel furthering or hindering those, but unless you agree with my list of interests that's going to be a frustrating and pointless discussion, isn't it? Meanwhile, you've gone a step beyond and claimed that the alliance does not serve our interests but, again, if I don't know what you consider our interests to be, how can I possibly either agree or disagree?
I don't see how the ball is in my court. I asked a question, putting the ball in their court. Isn't that the way it works?
As for interests, I don't agree. Obviously, if you're going to make a case that Israel is supporting our interests, you have to talk about what you think those interests are. I can either agree that that is a valid interest, or disagree. They're kind of inextricably linked. It would be part of the overall conversation.
As for me, I'm not even sure what our interests are in the ME, other than wanting stability, of some form or another. And Israel is hardly providing that for us. (not they possibly could, of course.)
What was supposed to be a protest at Rep. Ilhan's office drew more of her supporters than critics.
drummerboy said:I asked a question, putting the ball in their court. Isn't that the way it works?
As for interests, I don't agree. Obviously, if you're going to make a case that Israel is supporting our interests, you have to talk about what you think those interests are. I can either agree that that is a valid interest, or disagree. They're kind of inextricably linked. It would be part of the overall conversation.
As for me, I'm not even sure what our interests are in the ME, other than wanting stability, of some form or another. And Israel is hardly providing that for us. (not they possibly could, of course.)
Well, I don't know what you think others think our interests are, but here's a partial list of what I think they are:
- Cultural affinity. It's tempting to dismiss this, but I think to do so is to ignore how people organize and relate themselves. Israel is the only Jewish state, making culturally significant obviously for Americans who identify as Jewish, but also for many who identify as Christian. Dismiss this if you like, but it matters, similarly to the way our cultural affinity with the UK makes that a significant alliance.
- Israel is a democracy. Perhaps I'm overly idealistic, but I think democratic governance is important, and that liberal democracies should be allied and support each other. Israel's turn in a more authoritarian, less democratic direction in recent years is alarming (as, for instance, is Hungary's and Poland's), but even under Netanyahu it remains broadly within the parameters of liberal democracy.
- The middle east is geographically significant. The Suez canal, for instance, is pretty important, and being allied to both Egypt and Israel is therefore significant. Of the two, Israel is a much more reliable ally, and, as noted above, more consonant with liberal democratic values
- Israel has a high quality intelligence network. Even accepting much of the criticism of the intelligence services (NSA, CIA, etc), it still remains true that intelligence work is important, and having an ally with a high quality one who can share important intelligence with us serves our interests
There's some broad points as a start. Where do you agree and disagree?
drummerboy said:
As for me, I'm not even sure what our interests are in the ME, other than wanting stability, of some form or another. And Israel is hardly providing that for us. (not they possibly could, of course.)
It helps to start with the history of the imperialism, power struggles, and oil rights in the ME. While the linked summary only goes up through the 70's, it outlines the development of U.S. and oil companies' (and arms dealers') interests in the region, the use of the CIA for regime change, as well as other manipulations in the ME for the past century. It also briefly touches on the ongoing competition with Russian influence.
https://www.ueunion.org/ue-news-feature/2017/blood-and-oil-a-middle-east-primer-for-ue-members
If you don't want to read the whole thing, here's a snippet that provides an idea of the US's oil and arms dealers interests:
"U.S. government strategy came under severe strain in the early 1970s. The Middle Eastern nations within the Organization of Petroleum Exporting Countries (OPEC) in 1973 demanded a better share of oil profits from Western oil corporations and Western restraint of Israel. These demands were followed by higher prices and a boycott. As John Rose writes, "the oil-boycott was successful only because it temporarily united the most radical of the oil-producing countries with the most reactionary — including the two most decisive and pro-American, Saudi Arabia and Iran."
Later that year, Israel decisively repulsed a joint Egyptian-Syrian attack. "The United States saved Israel from collapse at the end of the first week by our arms supply," stated Henry Kissinger, then U.S. Secretary of State. "Some have claimed it was American strategy to produce a stalemate in the 1973 war. This is absolutely wrong. What we wanted was the most massive Arab defeat possible."
Specifically, what the U.S. government wanted, in Kissinger’s words, was "to break up the Arab united front," in order to return to the previous alliances and maintain U.S. corporate control of Middle Eastern oil. After the war, the U.S. readily agreed to sell Saudi Arabia and Iran military hardware worth billions of dollars. Kissinger’s strategy led eventually to the 1979 Camp David Accords, with an Israeli withdrawal from the Sinai peninsula in exchange for Egyptian recognition of Israel. Egypt had been detached from "the Arab united front."
The big oil companies, meanwhile, had done quite well. Exxon’s profits for 1973 set an all-time record for any corporation."
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sprout said:Kissinger’s strategy led eventually to the 1979 Camp David Accords, with an Israeli withdrawal from the Sinai peninsula in exchange for Egyptian recognition of Israel. Egypt had been detached from "the Arab united front."
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Completely OT: In 1980 my wife and I were in Israel. One part of our trip we spent in Haifa. My wife had a relative who lived in Zichron Yaakov, a town near Haifa. We made plans to meet him and his family one evening for dinner and stay overnight in their house. We were to meet at our hotel. His wife and two daughters met us at our hotel and my wife's relative was going to meet us there as well. He was serving his two weeks' reserve duty at the Sinai border with Egypt in preparation for Israel's withdrawl from the Sinai. He was a couple of hours late and when he walked into the hotel he said "Sorry I'm late - I got caught in a sandstorm." He said it in a very nonchalant way, as if it happens all the time.
I've used that excuse many times over the years when we're late -" Sorry, we got caught in a sandstorm."
While we're on the subject of anti-Semitism, here's a brief video from Ukraine, provided by Eduard Dolinsky, director of the Ukrainian Jewish Committee:
https://twitter.com/edolinsky/status/1097542685378969600
Edited to Add:
The location of the video is:
Shopping Center "Town Gallery". Kiev, Avenue Banderas, 23
"Avenue Banderas" is named after Stephen Banderas, a Nazi collaborator during World War II.
Dolinsky points out that the display shown in the mall video occurred on the same night as a torchlight march in Kiev that made Charlottesville look like a school picnic:
"All about the Benyamins"
This Youtube video appeared in the Twitter account of Anti-Zionist League on Jan. 21.
I hope that this is not where Omar got the idea.
https://twitter.com/TheAZL/status/1087517732239822849
paulsurovell said:
While we're on the subject of anti-Semitism, here's a brief video from Ukraine, provided by Eduard Dolinsky, director of the Ukrainian Jewish Committee:
https://twitter.com/edolinsky/status/1097542685378969600
Edited to Add:
The location of the video is:
Shopping Center "Town Gallery". Kiev, Avenue Banderas, 23
"Avenue Banderas" is named after Stephen Banderas, a Nazi collaborator during World War II.
Dolinsky points out that the display shown in the mall video occurred on the same night as a torchlight march in Kiev that made Charlottesville look like a school picnic:
https://twitter.com/edolinsky/status/1097438020863700993
I saw this on Facebook. Chilling and made me think of this American "hero:"
If it's not too much trouble, don't try to drag this thread into your "Russia's not so bad just because they invaded Ukraine" argument.
paulsurovell said:
While we're on the subject of anti-Semitism, here's a brief video from Ukraine, provided by Eduard Dolinsky, director of the Ukrainian Jewish Committee:
https://twitter.com/edolinsky/status/1097542685378969600
Edited to Add:
The location of the video is:
Shopping Center "Town Gallery". Kiev, Avenue Banderas, 23
"Avenue Banderas" is named after Stephen Banderas, a Nazi collaborator during World War II.
Dolinsky points out that the display shown in the mall video occurred on the same night as a torchlight march in Kiev that made Charlottesville look like a school picnic:
https://twitter.com/edolinsky/status/1097438020863700993
South_Mountaineer said:
If it's not too much trouble, don't try to drag this thread into your "Russia's not so bad just because they invaded Ukraine" argument.
paulsurovell said:
While we're on the subject of anti-Semitism, here's a brief video from Ukraine, provided by Eduard Dolinsky, director of the Ukrainian Jewish Committee:
https://twitter.com/edolinsky/status/1097542685378969600
Edited to Add:
The location of the video is:
Shopping Center "Town Gallery". Kiev, Avenue Banderas, 23
"Avenue Banderas" is named after Stephen Banderas, a Nazi collaborator during World War II.
Dolinsky points out that the display shown in the mall video occurred on the same night as a torchlight march in Kiev that made Charlottesville look like a school picnic:
https://twitter.com/edolinsky/status/1097438020863700993
When someone's personal animus reaches the point where, in a thread about anti-Semitism, he tries to deflect from evidence posted of surging neo-Nazism, from a courageous leader of the Ukrainian Jewish community.
South_Mountaineer said:
If it's not too much trouble, don't try to drag this thread into your "Russia's not so bad just because they invaded Ukraine" argument.
paulsurovell said:
While we're on the subject of anti-Semitism, here's a brief video from Ukraine, provided by Eduard Dolinsky, director of the Ukrainian Jewish Committee:
https://twitter.com/edolinsky/status/1097542685378969600
Edited to Add:
The location of the video is:
Shopping Center "Town Gallery". Kiev, Avenue Banderas, 23
"Avenue Banderas" is named after Stephen Banderas, a Nazi collaborator during World War II.
Dolinsky points out that the display shown in the mall video occurred on the same night as a torchlight march in Kiev that made Charlottesville look like a school picnic:
https://twitter.com/edolinsky/status/1097438020863700993
Here you go:
https://www.thenation.com/article/neo-nazis-far-right-ukraine/
And then there's this......
NBC: GOP's anti-Muslim display likening Rep. Omar to a terrorist rocks W. Virginia capitol
On the upside, there's no ambiguity involved here.
From the article:
"It's ugly, it's hateful and there's absolutely no place for it in American politics," Pushkin said, according to WVNews. "Not in the country that I love. Not in the state that I love. We all give up our time during this time of year to come up here and serve our constituents because we love this state. Well, I love everybody in the state no matter what they look like, who they pray to, who they love. I'm tired of it. It disgusts me."
Pushkin, who's Jewish, added, "I'm proud to live in a country that somebody can come into this country with absolutely nothing and wind up in the halls of Congress representing the state of Minnesota."
As difficult as things are, as conflicted as I often feel, I am glad that there are still vocal, patriotic people like this who can make me proud to be an American.
Yes -- there are anti-Semitic and anti-Muslim sentiments, and these exist in overt as well as more hidden (e.g., dog-whistle) forms.
Because of the prevalence of these sentiments, care needs to be taken when discussing topics and groups related to these. Care can be taken by being more informed about multiple points of view, and/or by learning from mistakes when accidentally referencing anti-Semitic or anti-Muslim tropes, etc.
But taking more care in these discussions should not prevent exposure of the real political/power maneuvers behind the conflicts in the Middle East. If care can be taken, it would in fact assist in understanding the other side's point of view, and make it more likely to find the most fair and humane solution for all individuals involved.
----------------
I'll ramble on about this for a bit:
I'm seeing the political drivers to 'market' anti-Semitic vs. anti-Muslim sentiments as closely aligned with 'split labor market theory'. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Split_labor_market_theory)
That theory attempted to explain
- racial/ethnic tensions and labor market segmentation by race/ethnicity in terms of a created social structure and political power. Individual-level prejudice as not the driver, but a visible symptom, of capitalist-driven markets.
What we have now appears to be:
- religious/Middle Eastern land/rights tensions and political market segmentation by alignment with Palestinian (and by extension, Muslims) or Israeli (and by extension, Jews), which is created from social structures and political power. Individual-level prejudice as not the driver, but a visible symptom, of capitalist-driven imperialism.
It would be interesting and ironic to find that Delegate Pushkin is related to the great Russian writer.
The attempts to stifle Omar from within the party are really getting ridiculous. She has been put on notice that any criticism of Israel or our support for them is going to get attacked as anti-Semitic.
Good job, lobby that can't be named.
drummerboy said:
The attempts to stifle Omar from within the party are really getting ridiculous. She has been put on notice that any criticism of Israel or our support for them is going to get attacked as anti-Semitic.
Good job, lobby that can't be named.
Maybe she should be very careful about how she chooses her words giving the sensitivities. She is not helping herself at this point. Whether she is right or wrong, she has to be aware that she is walking through a political minefield.
drummerboy said:
The attempts to stifle Omar from within the party are really getting ridiculous. She has been put on notice that any criticism of Israel or our support for them is going to get attacked as anti-Semitic.
Good job, lobby that can't be named.
Jews within her district are extremely upset. Are you going to tell them what is anti-semitic and what's not? Would you tell African-Americans what's racist and what isn't?
"For some Jews, it smacks of a longtime attack questioning their patriotism and attempting to marginalize Jews as not true patriots of America, or whatever country where they live. The disloyalty suggestion carries so much baggage that the Anti-Defamation League has a web page detailing its uses throughout history.
It really frosted Steve Hunegs.
As executive director of the Jewish Community Relations Center of Minnesota and the Dakotas, Hunegs was among those who had met with Omar and other Jewish leaders on her fence-mending tour.
In preparation for the Feb. 19 meeting, Hunegs brought a photograph of the grave of his cousin, Gerald “Sonny” Cohen. The grave is in the American military cemetery in Lorraine, France. Sonny Cohen died in 1944, fighting for America during World War II.
“I brought that photo to our meeting with Congresswoman Omar to illustrate the profound patriotism of Jewish Americans,” Hunegs said in a statement posted Friday on JCRC’s web page.
........
“Our community is exasperated by Rep. Omar’s unfulfilled promises to listen and learn from Jewish constituents while seemingly simultaneously finding another opportunity to make an anti-Semitic remark and insult our community,” he said. “The JCRC is supportive of a robust conversation about Israel’s policies, campaign finance reform, and other topics of national and international importance. However, our political discourse must quickly evolve to be able to hold these conversations without using age-old stereotypes about minority communities.”
cramer said:
drummerboy said:Jews within her district are extremely upset. Are you going to tell them what is anti-semitic and what's not? Would you tell African-Americans what's racist and what isn't?
The attempts to stifle Omar from within the party are really getting ridiculous. She has been put on notice that any criticism of Israel or our support for them is going to get attacked as anti-Semitic.
Good job, lobby that can't be named.
"For some Jews, it smacks of a longtime attack questioning their patriotism and attempting to marginalize Jews as not true patriots of America, or whatever country where they live. The disloyalty suggestion carries so much baggage that the Anti-Defamation League has a web page detailing its uses throughout history.
It really frosted Steve Hunegs.
As executive director of the Jewish Community Relations Center of Minnesota and the Dakotas, Hunegs was among those who had met with Omar and other Jewish leaders on her fence-mending tour.
In preparation for the Feb. 19 meeting, Hunegs brought a photograph of the grave of his cousin, Gerald “Sonny” Cohen. The grave is in the American military cemetery in Lorraine, France. Sonny Cohen died in 1944, fighting for America during World War II.
“I brought that photo to our meeting with Congresswoman Omar to illustrate the profound patriotism of Jewish Americans,” Hunegs said in a statement posted Friday on JCRC’s web page.
........
“Our community is exasperated by Rep. Omar’s unfulfilled promises to listen and learn from Jewish constituents while seemingly simultaneously finding another opportunity to make an anti-Semitic remark and insult our community,” he said. “The JCRC is supportive of a robust conversation about Israel’s policies, campaign finance reform, and other topics of national and international importance. However, our political discourse must quickly evolve to be able to hold these conversations without using age-old stereotypes about minority communities.”
https://www.twincities.com/2019/03/01/ilhan-omar-went-on-a-fence-mending-tour-with-local-jews-then-she-offended-them-again/
I find this entire post to be racist. Don't you dare question me or my community.
tjohn said:
drummerboy said:Maybe she should be very careful about how she chooses her words giving the sensitivities. She is not helping herself at this point. Whether she is right or wrong, she has to be aware that she is walking through a political minefield.
The attempts to stifle Omar from within the party are really getting ridiculous. She has been put on notice that any criticism of Israel or our support for them is going to get attacked as anti-Semitic.
Good job, lobby that can't be named.
Well, that's the idea.
Let's be rid of this troublesome thorn in our sides by making her afraid to open her mouth.
I find it quite loathsome.
You have to admit, that on the scale of anti-semitism, what she has said recently is really on the edge of the border, yet she's vilified as if she's denying the Holocaust.
DB:
To give Omar the benefit of the doubt, she may have been brought up or participated in organizations that discussed Jews in ways that align with anti-Semitic tropes, without realizing that she was absorbing stereotyping language. So, she may be using this language without realizing the references to stereotypes.
Part of the challenge she faces is that anti-Semitism had varied depending on the context and location -- so there are a number of tropes she could (and has) accidentally referenced.
What's behind the disturbing reemergence of anti-Semitism?
Over the centuries, the distinctive feature of Jew-hatred has been its flexibility in changing its shape and mounting varied, mutually contradictory attacks: Anti-Semites can accuse Jews of being simultaneously capitalists and communists, plutocrats and beggars, or disloyally internationalist while narrowly clannish. Whatever Jews do, the anti-Semite finds grounds to object.
...
Third, there is a spillover from the conflict in the Middle East and the politics around Israel. This is not new, of course. What is new is that the Palestinian question has lost its former centrality in the Arab world.
It is worth noting that, in response to the Trump administration’s decision to move the American embassy to Jerusalem, the major protests did not take place in Cairo or Baghdad but in European capitals. Meanwhile on American college campuses, a campaign has been mounted to boycott Israel to undermine its legitimacy.
This type of politics aimed at terminating the Jewish state, which would render half of the world’s Jews stateless, is reasonably described as anti-Semitic.
There is an additional complexity in the United States. While American Jews, who are predominantly liberal voters, support the right of Israel to exist, they have been critical of Israeli policies.
In contrast, more robust support for Israel has deep roots in parts of the Christian Zionist community, especially among evangelicals.
Yet, while opponents of Israel protest in front of synagogues, they never demonstrate in front of churches that support Israel. This pattern of anti-Israel activism today reveals its anti-Semitism: its preference to attack Jews, even those who are critical of Israel, while overlooking Christians whose support of Israel may be even stronger.
...
It is wrong to attribute Jew-hatred to any single politician or political movement. Instead, we should avoid simplistic explanations for the complex challenges we face while remembering the importance of renouncing this and all other prejudices.
I wouldn't presume to tell African-Americans what's racist and what isn't. It's not up to non-Jews to tell Jews what's anti-semitic and what isn't.
drummerboy said:
And the pile-on by Dems was disgraceful if you ask me, and is further evidence (he's gonna say it) of the power of the Israel lobby.
I wonder, mayhewdrive, if you think the following things are true.
There is a powerful lobby for Israeli interests, and one of the ways they wield that power is through donations.
Or do you believe that all support for Israel is driven by only the purest of moral considerations?
If that were true, there would be no need for AIPAC and their cousins, would there?
I just waded into this thread after avoiding it since its start. Decided to see who is defending those tweets. Oh, drummerboy. I usually agree with you. You are way off here. Granted, I have not read past page one yet.
The last time we Jews did not strongly advocate for our interests we were nearly exterminated. It can happen again. Not to mention, it's in the interest of the U.S. to be strongly allied with the only democracy in the middle east.
I am 100% opposed to Netanyahu. But I am 100% for Israel.
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After watching this 4-part video, The Lobby, https://www.aljazeera.com/investigations/thelobby/
I agree that they should have to register as a foreign agent. They have way too much influence.