The Trump Agenda
Interesting Read from today's Star Ledger: http://www.nj.com/opinion/index.ssf/2017/01/hed_the_ex-jersey_guy_who_beat_trump_at_his_own_ga.html
Also very interesting if you struggle to understand Trump Voters: http://www.wnyc.org/story/whats-changed-trump-voters/?utm_source=Newsletter%3A+WNYC+Daily+Newsletter&utm_campaign=3b240fadb0-Daily_Brief_July_4_20141_26_2014&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_edd6b58c0d-3b240fadb0-68703421&mc_cid=3b240fadb0&mc_eid=2776148c52
the dilemma is real. the threat to the mainland US is also real.
I abhor violence and I would prefer a world filled with good people who have good intentions but thats not reality. how I rationalized the killing of innocent people under the Obama administration is that I trusted that the decisions to undertake the drone strikes was done with much thought and was only undertaken against lethal enemies of us all. I accept that mistakes were made and that innocent people were killed in these actions at times and if that makes me a monster, so be it.
Still and all, with all their mistakes in who they support and why, the foreign policy pursued under Obama was far more moral and far more intelligent than any foreign policy of any president in my lifetime.
I'd also like to know your viewpoints on a better way to eliminate the structure and leadership of al Qaeda and ISIS.
of course, I knew Trump's agenda before. But what I don't understand is how he can be moving so quickly on it. I guess I naively believed that these things would take a while (years) because they had to make their way through congress. I figured with a Republican congress, they'd eventually get passed but it seems we are moving through these things at lightening speed. So, what good does calling congressional representatives do? I was ready to be vocal but to what end? If he can just sign executive orders and there is no debate on the issues, the reality is we can do little, right? Not giving up, I'll still fight back just really surprised how little voice we truly have.
I was no DeBlasio fan but I'm kind of loving his new role as bully protector of NY. I think it'll be awesome to see NY and other states simply refusing to comply with some of this cr$&.
Huge protests in Philadelphia where Trump and the republican leadership are meeting today.
I can hear the Trump voters now:
Lock him up, lock him up.
Senators Durbin and Udall are blocking a Senate resolution against UN Security Council Resolution 1441, supported by the Obama administration (via abstention), that declares Israeli settlements illegal.
Online petition thanking Durbin and Udall here:
http://petitions.moveon.org/sign/we-thank-senatordurbin?r_by=1135580
wow dude.
you've gone complete arsewhole
never mind. if you can't answer the damn question just say so.
and btw,
this:
When you ask what the alternative is to drone strikes, what exactly is the outcome you are looking for?
is a terribly constructed sentence.
terp said:
So, you're going to try to put me on the spot "what else should we do?" and you don't even have an outcome? How am I supposed to know what we are supposed to do if I don't know the desired outcome. You are really that poorly thought out?
I get it. You are a coward. You can't answer the question on what they are supposed to accomplish. Because you don't care. You are fine with murder of innocent people. Just say it. It makes you sleep better at night knowing that there are secret conversations that take place and decide who lives and who dies. As long as you like the branding you are presented with of the guy making these tuff dictatorial decisions.
You are literally that immoral. Its pretty transparent.
drummerboy said:
I'm saying that you're being a bit disingenuous in your criticism of the drone strikes. I have contended many times that with the drones, Obama took a horrible situation (bombing raids with collateral damage) and made it somewhat better by replacing them with drones, as they're more precise. A drone strike provides less risk for everyone involved, except for the target. Soldiers are at less risk and civilians are too. That's not even arguable.
You can argue that we shouldn't be targeting these people in sovereign countries at all. That's fine. But that was hardly an option for Obama. He did the best he could do, and made a terrible situation somewhat better.
So again, what is your alternative (a politically viable one, mind you) to the drone strikes? What should Obama have done instead?
terp said:
When you ask what the alternative is to drone strikes, what exactly is the outcome you are looking for?
I'm not the one advocating murder based on some outcome I do not have the brain capacity to articulate. Call me what you will, but there is a word to describe your position. Evil
It might be nice to think these policies are making us safer, but that's not b reality. For example, How are our actions in Yemen enhancing our safety?
I know you guys love Obama, but his Foreign Policy was by and large atrocious. His strategy was literally imperceptible and resulted in the ME in flames.
hoops said:
the dilemma is real. the threat to the mainland US is also real.
I abhor violence and I would prefer a world filled with good people who have good intentions but thats not reality. how I rationalized the killing of innocent people under the Obama administration is that I trusted that the decisions to undertake the drone strikes was done with much thought and was only undertaken against lethal enemies of us all. I accept that mistakes were made and that innocent people were killed in these actions at times and if that makes me a monster, so be it.
Still and all, with all their mistakes in who they support and why, the foreign policy pursued under Obama was far more moral and far more intelligent than any foreign policy of any president in my lifetime.
I'd also like to know your viewpoints on a better way to eliminate the structure and leadership of al Qaeda and ISIS.
give it up hoops. terp has no answer.
He lives in a fairyland of many types. One of those is the world where Obama could have simply told the American people - "Hey you know what? We really shouldn't be attacking people in other countries, regardless of whether we think they're plotting against us. So I'm just going to cancel The War on Terror. Is that ok with you folks? Good. Alrighty then."
That's terp's world.
terp said:
It might be nice to think these policies are making us safer, but that's not b reality. For example, How are our actions in Yemen enhancing our safety?
I know you guys love Obama, but his Foreign Policy was by and large atrocious. His strategy was literally imperceptible and resulted in the ME in flames.
hoops said:
the dilemma is real. the threat to the mainland US is also real.
I abhor violence and I would prefer a world filled with good people who have good intentions but thats not reality. how I rationalized the killing of innocent people under the Obama administration is that I trusted that the decisions to undertake the drone strikes was done with much thought and was only undertaken against lethal enemies of us all. I accept that mistakes were made and that innocent people were killed in these actions at times and if that makes me a monster, so be it.
Still and all, with all their mistakes in who they support and why, the foreign policy pursued under Obama was far more moral and far more intelligent than any foreign policy of any president in my lifetime.
I'd also like to know your viewpoints on a better way to eliminate the structure and leadership of al Qaeda and ISIS.
FOREIGN POLICY SCOREBOARD
Bush 2 v Obama : Obama wins
Obama v Trump: Obama is ahead by 55 points
It was kinda in flames when he got there.
But anyway, the question to you is - what should he have done instead in the ME?
But I know you're not gonna answer that one either.
terp said:
It might be nice to think these policies are making us safer, but that's not b reality. For example, How are our actions in Yemen enhancing our safety?
I know you guys love Obama, but his Foreign Policy was by and large atrocious. His strategy was literally imperceptible and resulted in the ME in flames.
conandrob240 said:
of course, I knew Trump's agenda before. But what I don't understand is how he can be moving so quickly on it. I guess I naively believed that these things would take a while (years) because they had to make their way through congress. I figured with a Republican congress, they'd eventually get passed but it seems we are moving through these things at lightening speed. So, what good does calling congressional representatives do? I was ready to be vocal but to what end? If he can just sign executive orders and there is no debate on the issues, the reality is we can do little, right? Not giving up, I'll still fight back just really surprised how little voice we truly have.
I was no DeBlasio fan but I'm kind of loving his new role as bully protector of NY. I think it'll be awesome to see NY and other states simply refusing to comply with some of this cr$&.
Con: Let me 'splain. It's all Bannon. Did you hear a peep out of him during the transition? No, he was too busy preparing what was going to happen the first few weeks and writing all the executive actions. Every, single thing that's happening has Bannon's fingerprints all over it. DJT would have no idea what to do. Bannon's idea is to make everything go so fast that everyone's head is spinning and nobody knows where to look first. He is doing the tablecloth trick, except in his version all the place settings come crashing down when the tablecloth is yanked off the table.
Bannon's job is to figure out all the things they can do that do not require Congress or anyone else's sign-off. And to sort out what is law and what is just tradition or common decency or common sense. For example, releasing the tax returns. Not law. Son-in-law working in WH. No law against it. Getting rid of WH press corps. No law that there has to be a WH press corp. Firing the top experienced people in the State Dept. No law against it.
As far as the executive actions and executive orders (these are two separate things, and I haven't yet gone through the ones he signed to figure out exactly what he signed): Likely that most of them are executive ACTIONS (not orders) which are basically show pieces.
And yes, you HAVE to be vocal. If you are aghast, if you don't want to see fascism come to this country, you have to be vocal. If you say, "to what end" you are throwing in the towel, succumbing to fascism. That's how it takes root, by citizens saying there's nothing we can do about it.
this easiest way to understand this is to know that (insert large percentage here) of what he says his exec orders are gonna do are not gonna happen without congressional action first. Just because Trump puts in an order doesn't mean it's valid. He's not king after all, as much as wants to be.
I mean, it's Donald Trump. By definition, anything of substance that comes from him is bullsith.
The orders are just there to give the semblance that he's a man of action, responding to his followers and his campaign promises.
IT'S ALL BULL.
Probably the only EO that has an immediate effect is the abortion gag order. But that's become a tradition where the order is reversed from the whatever the last guy from the other party did.
Here's some further reading:
http://www.newsweek.com/trump-executive-orders-symbol-substance-548361
conandrob240 said:
of course, I knew Trump's agenda before. But what I don't understand is how he can be moving so quickly on it. I guess I naively believed that these things would take a while (years) because they had to make their way through congress. I figured with a Republican congress, they'd eventually get passed but it seems we are moving through these things at lightening speed. So, what good does calling congressional representatives do? I was ready to be vocal but to what end? If he can just sign executive orders and there is no debate on the issues, the reality is we can do little, right? Not giving up, I'll still fight back just really surprised how little voice we truly have.
I was no DeBlasio fan but I'm kind of loving his new role as bully protector of NY. I think it'll be awesome to see NY and other states simply refusing to comply with some of this cr$&.
And remember. To DJT, all that matters is the photo op and the ability to say that he did something -- NOT the actual implementation of an idea or the betterment of the citizens. As long as he can hold up that leather folder and show his signature, it's all good. It's done.
Here's an interesting tidbit in Vanity Fair via DJT's butler.
"The home boasts some unusual art, including a portrait of Trump in the library, posing in tennis whites. Years ago, Trump would tell guests that the tiles in his daughter Ivanka’sroom were made by Walt Disney—a great story despite the fact that it was untrue.
'Who cares?' Trump laughed, according to his butler. If nothing else, take comfort in knowing that Trump is consistent in one thing—playing fast and loose with the truth."
A child dies every 10 minutes in Yemen. America supports these actions by providing the Saudi's with weapons and intelligence. To what ends? DB won't tell you.
But, hey. What else are you going to do? I'm sure some of those children would have grown up and planned something against the Motherland, so it's all good in his book.
I just want to add that the above may not be fair. It's very possible that DB has re-assessed his opinion on this matter in the last few weeks.
what are you burbling about now? re-assessed my opinion about what?
I was giving you the benefit of the doubt. I thought maybe you re-assessed your position that we can only be safe by causing human death & suffering on a grand scale.
drummerboy said:
what are you burbling about now? re-assessed my opinion about what?
On another thread DB is being attacked for being completely anti-military. Here you are attacking him for being a war monger.
do you deliberately not understand what I write?
please find me a post, any post, where I ever came close to making that assertion.
terp said:
I was giving you the benefit of the doubt. I thought maybe you re-assessed your position that we can only be safe by causing human death & suffering on a grand scale.
drummerboy said:
what are you burbling about now? re-assessed my opinion about what?
It is interesting. I saw that other thread. I think he was saying something to the affect of anyone who joins the military is a mindless killer.
You can imagine why I find it odd that he is OK with 3 bombs an hour. I mean, that is just the thing that puzzles me. Look, I think I'm on the record here for being against the travel ban. However, the travel ban is nothing compared to the carnage being wrought in the Muslim world prior to Trump is sworn in. Thus, to me all the hysterics seem an awful lot like crocodile tears.
LOST said:
On another thread DB is being attacked for being completely anti-military. Here you are attacking him for being a war monger.
I can't tell if you're trolling me or not.
You're being pretty obtuse on the subject.
But fine, I can't get past your Trump love anyway, so never mind.
terp said:
It is interesting. I saw that other thread. I think he was saying something to the affect of anyone who joins the military is a mindless killer.
You can imagine why I find it odd that he is OK with 3 bombs an hour. I mean, that is just the thing that puzzles me. Look, I think I'm on the record here for being against the travel ban. However, the travel ban is nothing compared to the carnage being wrought in the Muslim world prior to Trump is sworn in. Thus, to me all the hysterics seem an awful lot like crocodile tears.
LOST said:
On another thread DB is being attacked for being completely anti-military. Here you are attacking him for being a war monger.
It's an observation. For the record: I am not a Trump lover. I do not like Trump. I did not vote for him.
That being said: I am anti anti-Trump. Hysterics rarely gets us to a good place.
you have offered, as far as I've seen, exactly zero criticism of Trump. You have tentatively opposed this or that policy of his, that's it. But you clearly want to give this monstrosity of a human being "a chance".
In this world, that's love of Trump and recognizing a once in a lifetime horrorshow is not hysterics.
And of course you voted for Trump. Any vote not for Hillary was a vote for him. Do you want me to show you the math?
terp said:
It's an observation. For the record: I am not a Trump lover. I do not like Trump. I did not vote for him.
That being said: I am anti anti-Trump. Hysterics rarely gets us to a good place.
drummerboy said:
And of course you voted for Trump. Any vote not for Hillary was a vote for him. Do you want me to show you the math?
DB - I don't support much of what Terp posts and I don't know who (s)he voted for. But 'the math' doesn't support your statement for NJ.
no, it absolutely supports it. Just because terp's individual vote didn't affect the outcome is immaterial. Votes are not considered individually. They are considered in aggregate. As an individual it never makes sense to vote, as your individual contribution to the result is almost infinitesimal. Luckily that's now how we make our decision.
To the extent that Hillary's margin of victory in NJ has any impact (and I think it does, though it's certainly not great), then any vote not for Hillary was a vote against her because it affects the margin of victory.
It can't be any other way. It's just arithmetic.
sac said:
drummerboy said:
And of course you voted for Trump. Any vote not for Hillary was a vote for him. Do you want me to show you the math?
DB - I don't support much of what Terp posts and I don't know who (s)he voted for. But 'the math' doesn't support your statement for NJ.
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So, you're going to try to put me on the spot "what else should we do?" and you don't even have an outcome? How am I supposed to know what we are supposed to do if I don't know the desired outcome. You are really that poorly thought out?
I get it. You are a coward. You can't answer the question on what they are supposed to accomplish. Because you don't care. You are fine with murder of innocent people. Just say it. It makes you sleep better at night knowing that there are secret conversations that take place and decide who lives and who dies. As long as you like the branding you are presented with of the guy making these tuff dictatorial decisions.
You are literally that immoral. Its pretty transparent.