The Trump Agenda
ml1 said:
I find these kind of articles a little weird. Because these conservatives sound exactly like the delicate "snowflakes" they accuse liberals of being. I thought conservatives were tougher and more committed to the rightness of their beliefs. Why should they give a damn what some effete liberal thinks?
DaveSchmidt said:
This Village Green article by Mary Mann is well worth reading. It may not change any opinions, but whether you agree with them or not, reasonable neighbors are always good to listen to. Thank you, @marybarrmann.
Local Conservatives Question SOMA Community’s Commitment to Political Diversity
That's mostly my stance, too. However, as someone who only calls people precious snowflakes ironically and possesses an ounce of empathy (no more nor less) I actually understand what they're going through. I would hate being a liberal or heck, even the moderately libertarian type that I am, and find myself stuck in a Trump County right now, and here these poor bastards are on the wrong side of history in the wrong part of the state (Monmouth and Ocean counties are conservative as heck) and everyone around them is en fuego about the election results. I honestly feel for them.
But having said that, they really need to stop blaming liberals for everything now. Trump is their guy, they picked him, they voted for him twice and he has the power to do everything they want to get done. Everything that happens now is because of them and they need to start strapping up their boots and owning it.
gee, if you don't want to be referred to as a racist, xenophobe, misogynist it might me helpful not to admit you voted for one.
how do you separate one from the other? Hi my name is so and so and I voted for Trump because conservatism. Nope, doesnt work for me, you voted for Trump because nothing about what he stood for changed your mind about voting for a republican.
you did the deed, the fruits of your decisions belong to you alone.
ml1 said:
I find these kind of articles a little weird. Because these conservatives sound exactly like the delicate "snowflakes" they accuse liberals of being. I thought conservatives were tougher and more committed to the rightness of their beliefs. Why should they give a damn what some effete liberal thinks?
DaveSchmidt said:
This Village Green article by Mary Mann is well worth reading. It may not change any opinions, but whether you agree with them or not, reasonable neighbors are always good to listen to. Thank you, @marybarrmann.
Local Conservatives Question SOMA Community’s Commitment to Political Diversity
Not everyone who voted for Trump was a conservative:
http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2016/09/rfk-trump-2016-democratic-party-speechwriter-214270
ml1 said:
I find these kind of articles a little weird. Because these conservatives sound exactly like the delicate "snowflakes" they accuse liberals of being. I thought conservatives were tougher and more committed to the rightness of their beliefs. Why should they give a damn what some effete liberal thinks?
I didn't come away from the article thinking that the residents Mary talked to were especially thin skinned. Taken aback, maybe. Or exasperated. Along those lines, however, if I had an opportunity to talk with "Jim" I'd probably ask him to consider this: What intensifies reactions in any political debate are the stakes. Just as I think it's worth keeping in mind that, say, abortion foes are fighting what they are convinced is murder, a Trump voter shouldn't underestimate an opponent's belief that American democratic institutions and ideals themselves could suffer serious damage. To them, it's about more than partisan control of Washington, so Jim should expect more than a simple partisan disagreement.
ETA: Hoops expressed it well while I was writing this -- a perspective that shouldn't be easy for a Trump voter to shrug off or take personally as intolerance.
who cares, they're all idiots.
paulsurovell said:
ml1 said:
I find these kind of articles a little weird. Because these conservatives sound exactly like the delicate "snowflakes" they accuse liberals of being. I thought conservatives were tougher and more committed to the rightness of their beliefs. Why should they give a damn what some effete liberal thinks?
DaveSchmidt said:
This Village Green article by Mary Mann is well worth reading. It may not change any opinions, but whether you agree with them or not, reasonable neighbors are always good to listen to. Thank you, @marybarrmann.
Local Conservatives Question SOMA Community’s Commitment to Political Diversity
Not everyone who voted for Trump was a conservative:
http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2016/09/rfk-trump-2016-democratic-party-speechwriter-214270
Yes, but Jim voted for Trump, so reasonable analyses are apparently beyond him. We should not expect them to all of a sudden come to their senses. There is something deeply wrong with their perception.
DaveSchmidt said:
ml1 said:
I find these kind of articles a little weird. Because these conservatives sound exactly like the delicate "snowflakes" they accuse liberals of being. I thought conservatives were tougher and more committed to the rightness of their beliefs. Why should they give a damn what some effete liberal thinks?
I didn't come away from the article thinking that the residents Mary talked to were especially thin skinned. Taken aback, maybe. Or exasperated. Along those lines, however, if I had an opportunity to talk with "Jim" I'd probably ask him to consider this: What intensifies reactions in any political debate are the stakes. Just as I think it's worth keeping in mind that, say, abortion foes are fighting what they are convinced is murder, a Trump voter shouldn't underestimate an opponent's belief that American democratic institutions and ideals themselves could suffer serious damage. To them, it's about more than partisan control of Washington, so Jim should expect more than a simple partisan disagreement.
Sounds like a recipe for a civil war. Have you figured out which end of a gun the bullets come out of?
drummerboy said:
you're a better person than me. If I found that a friend or acquaintance voted for Trump (I have no friends so far that have admitted that) my attitude towards them would be irrevocably altered in a bad way. I'm not sure how I could remain friends with them. It would be as if I didn't know them anymore - that they have revealed a deep, deep fault in themselves that I can't reconcile.
ml1 said:
I'm not going to shun any of my neighbors for voting for Trump. But having said that, I'm not going to be able to have any respect for their decision. Putting Hillary Clinton and the Democratic Party aside for a moment, those people chose to vote for a person who isn't fit to hold any elected office anywhere. The man is proudly ignorant, uninformed and erratic. Not to mention a bully. And for some reason, a couple of thousand SOMA residents voted for Donald Trump. I can still be friends with them. But I'm not going to say I respect their decision.
While personally I'm quite liberal, I've never had a problem getting along with what I'd call 'classic conservatives'. The problem with Trump, is that he went in pretty deep with some extra-unsavory types by bringing in the Breitbart crowd (Bannon, Flynn, Miller, Gorka) which all have some pretty extreme views. He has clearly become a conduit of them. It may not be the core of his being, but since he's incapable of putting together policy on his own that's where his policy is going to come from. While each individual in this group all have their own extra quirks they have a common thread of general belief in extreme Islamophobia that I would expect anyone that has actually been exposed to real Muslims would wholly reject.
All this was out there at the time of the election, but the classic conservatives decided to go all in. I don't know if there was some suspicion that Trump's views might be moderated after inauguration, but that doesn't seem to have happened. Okay, you say you wanted an 'outsider' that would 'shake things up', but is that what you got? As we don't have a lot of unemployed coal miners out here and property is pretty expensive, I suspect most local conservatives were willing to overlook a lot of unsavory aspects in order to get a tax break. At this point it's hard to have a lot of respect for an unrepentant Trump voter.
it might be. the question is who's at fault for causing it. I have my own ideas. .
tjohn said:
Sounds like a recipe for a civil war. Have you figured out which end of a gun the bullets come out of?
drummerboy said:
you're a better person than me. If I found that a friend or acquaintance voted for Trump (I have no friends so far that have admitted that) my attitude towards them would be irrevocably altered in a bad way. I'm not sure how I could remain friends with them. It would be as if I didn't know them anymore - that they have revealed a deep, deep fault in themselves that I can't reconcile.
ml1 said:
I'm not going to shun any of my neighbors for voting for Trump. But having said that, I'm not going to be able to have any respect for their decision. Putting Hillary Clinton and the Democratic Party aside for a moment, those people chose to vote for a person who isn't fit to hold any elected office anywhere. The man is proudly ignorant, uninformed and erratic. Not to mention a bully. And for some reason, a couple of thousand SOMA residents voted for Donald Trump. I can still be friends with them. But I'm not going to say I respect their decision.
drummerboy said:
Yes, but Jim voted for Trump, so reasonable analyses are apparently beyond him. We should not expect them to all of a sudden come to their senses. There is something deeply wrong with their perception.
...and you apparently:
drummerboy said:
who cares, they're all idiots.
paulsurovell said:
ml1 said:
I find these kind of articles a little weird. Because these conservatives sound exactly like the delicate "snowflakes" they accuse liberals of being. I thought conservatives were tougher and more committed to the rightness of their beliefs. Why should they give a damn what some effete liberal thinks?
DaveSchmidt said:
This Village Green article by Mary Mann is well worth reading. It may not change any opinions, but whether you agree with them or not, reasonable neighbors are always good to listen to. Thank you, @marybarrmann.
Local Conservatives Question SOMA Community’s Commitment to Political Diversity
Not everyone who voted for Trump was a conservative:
http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2016/09/rfk-trump-2016-democratic-party-speechwriter-214270
you might want to look up the definition of idiot and then listen to any Trump voter try to explain their vote.
Get back to me on that.
lord_pabulum said:
drummerboy said:
Yes, but Jim voted for Trump, so reasonable analyses are apparently beyond him. We should not expect them to all of a sudden come to their senses. There is something deeply wrong with their perception.
...and you apparently:
drummerboy said:
who cares, they're all idiots.
paulsurovell said:
ml1 said:
I find these kind of articles a little weird. Because these conservatives sound exactly like the delicate "snowflakes" they accuse liberals of being. I thought conservatives were tougher and more committed to the rightness of their beliefs. Why should they give a damn what some effete liberal thinks?
DaveSchmidt said:
This Village Green article by Mary Mann is well worth reading. It may not change any opinions, but whether you agree with them or not, reasonable neighbors are always good to listen to. Thank you, @marybarrmann.
Local Conservatives Question SOMA Community’s Commitment to Political Diversity
Not everyone who voted for Trump was a conservative:
http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2016/09/rfk-trump-2016-democratic-party-speechwriter-214270
drummerboy said:
you're a better person than me. If I found that a friend or acquaintance voted for Trump (I have no friends so far that have admitted that) my attitude towards them would be irrevocably altered in a bad way. I'm not sure how I could remain friends with them. It would be as if I didn't know them anymore - that they have revealed a deep, deep fault in themselves that I can't reconcile.
ml1 said:
I'm not going to shun any of my neighbors for voting for Trump. But having said that, I'm not going to be able to have any respect for their decision. Putting Hillary Clinton and the Democratic Party aside for a moment, those people chose to vote for a person who isn't fit to hold any elected office anywhere. The man is proudly ignorant, uninformed and erratic. Not to mention a bully. And for some reason, a couple of thousand SOMA residents voted for Donald Trump. I can still be friends with them. But I'm not going to say I respect their decision.
I have a college friend, a Puerto Rican female who works in tech industry, first in her family to go to college and grew up poor in Boston. Mom did odd jobs, Dad drove a taxi. She is a Republican but did not vote for Trump. Her underlying issue for not voting for him is because how he treats women and what she heard on the Billy Bush tape. That's it. If not for Billy Bush, she would have cast her vote for him. She LOVES his stance on immigration and doesn't give a hoot about his taxes (we haven't had a talk since the Russia thing amped up). I don't get it at all. She and her sister, a closeted lesbian, don't speak because of the politics. It's pretty messy.
drummerboy said:
you might want to look up the definition of idiot and then listen to any Trump voter try to explain their vote.
Get back to me on that.
Ok. A potential Trump voter is called uneducated, stupid or deplorable by the liberal elitists in Dem party. This is one of the reasons HRC lost - but liberal elitists fail to recognize this.
The air is thinner up where the liberal elite live. Tough to connect dots at 10,000 feet.
lord_pabulum said:
drummerboy said:
you might want to look up the definition of idiot and then listen to any Trump voter try to explain their vote.
Get back to me on that.
Ok. A potential Trump voter is called uneducated, stupid or deplorable by the liberal elitists in Dem party. This is one of the reasons HRC lost - but liberal elitists fail to recognize this.
It's hopeless. Drummerboy is incapable of understanding any of this. I am still waiting from him to explain how the Dems arrived at their current position from Bill Clinton's electoral maps of '92 and '96.
I feel the same way. It's as if a long-dormant log has been rolled over and a massive colony of termites revealed underneath.
drummerboy said:
you're a better person than me. If I found that a friend or acquaintance voted for Trump (I have no friends so far that have admitted that) my attitude towards them would be irrevocably altered in a bad way. I'm not sure how I could remain friends with them. It would be as if I didn't know them anymore - that they have revealed a deep, deep fault in themselves that I can't reconcile.
ml1 said:
I'm not going to shun any of my neighbors for voting for Trump. But having said that, I'm not going to be able to have any respect for their decision. Putting Hillary Clinton and the Democratic Party aside for a moment, those people chose to vote for a person who isn't fit to hold any elected office anywhere. The man is proudly ignorant, uninformed and erratic. Not to mention a bully. And for some reason, a couple of thousand SOMA residents voted for Donald Trump. I can still be friends with them. But I'm not going to say I respect their decision.
I didn't just read the article. I also saw the posts on MOL and FB recruiting members to the group. They don't want any liberals in the group reading their posts or commenting. Not just rude or insulting liberals. None. To me that seems like people looking for a "safe space."
Not all my Facebook friends live in SOMA. Not all are liberals. Some voted for Trump. Some of them argue with me on my page. Sometimes people are rude. But I haven't blocked or unfriended anyone for their politics. But I guess this liberal is tougher than a SOMA Trump voter.
DaveSchmidt said:
ml1 said:
I find these kind of articles a little weird. Because these conservatives sound exactly like the delicate "snowflakes" they accuse liberals of being. I thought conservatives were tougher and more committed to the rightness of their beliefs. Why should they give a damn what some effete liberal thinks?
I didn't come away from the article thinking that the residents Mary talked to were especially thin skinned. Taken aback, maybe. Or exasperated. Along those lines, however, if I had an opportunity to talk with "Jim" I'd probably ask him to consider this: What intensifies reactions in any political debate are the stakes. Just as I think it's worth keeping in mind that, say, abortion foes are fighting what they are convinced is murder, a Trump voter shouldn't underestimate an opponent's belief that American democratic institutions and ideals themselves could suffer serious damage. To them, it's about more than partisan control of Washington, so Jim should expect more than a simple partisan disagreement.
ETA: Hoops expressed it well while I was writing this -- a perspective that shouldn't be easy for a Trump voter to shrug off or take personally as intolerance.
I'll go out on a limb and surmise that the corresponding local Dem groups on FB wouldn't tolerate a Republican interloper in their midst, particularly with debate that doesn't fit the particular worldview espoused within. Hardly surprising the Rep group would be any different.
It's not a partisan FB page for Republicans. My understanding is that it is a political discussion group and they don't want anyone with a dissenting view.
If it was an advocacy group organized around an issue I get you don't want dissent. But this sounds exactly like what I described. People who want to be protected from other views.
ctrzaska said:
I'll go out on a limb and surmise that the corresponding local Dem groups on FB wouldn't tolerate a Republican interloper in their midst, particularly with debate that doesn't fit the particular worldview espoused within. Hardly surprising the Rep group would be any different.
DaveSchmidt said:
This Village Green article by Mary Mann is well worth reading. It may not change any opinions, but whether you agree with them or not, reasonable neighbors are always good to listen to. Thank you, @marybarrmann.
Local Conservatives Question SOMA Community’s Commitment to Political Diversity
From the linked article:
"Regarding his new friends on SOMA Right of Center, he said, “I’m fairly sure everyone in the group, we want the almost entirely the same outcomes as the people on the Left. We differ with the Left on how to get there. Nobody wants children (no matter their race) to grow up in poverty or with limits on becoming all they can be. Nobody wants women to go back to the kitchen or gays to go back into the closet. Nobody wants Syrian refugees to be left to die in Syria.”
If that is true why would they vote for Trump who is now anti abortion rights and does not care at all about Syrian refugees? Do they not understand that Trump's base is hostile to racial and religious minorities and that his VP and his Evangelical supporters are hostile to LGBT?
Instead of worrying about their feelings why not ask them why they voted for Trump and what they think about the feelings of their Gay or Muslim neighbors?
And ask then this:
If Trump had begun his speech by attacking Irish or Italian or Polish immigrants or if he had called for a "temporary" ban on Jews or Catholics entering the US, would they have voted for him?
ml1 said:
It's not a partisan FB page for Republicans. My understanding is that it is a political discussion group and they don't want anyone with a dissenting view.
If it was an advocacy group organized around an issue I get you don't want dissent. But this sounds exactly like what I described. People who want to be protected from other views.
ctrzaska said:
I'll go out on a limb and surmise that the corresponding local Dem groups on FB wouldn't tolerate a Republican interloper in their midst, particularly with debate that doesn't fit the particular worldview espoused within. Hardly surprising the Rep group would be any different.
You know that Monty Python sketch where the guy is looking for the room for an argument?
The entire planet has become an argument room for these people.
They're looking for the room without an argument.
For all we know they're exchanging pot pie recipes in there.
ridski said:
ml1 said:You know that Monty Python sketch where the guy is looking for the room for an argument?
It's not a partisan FB page for Republicans. My understanding is that it is a political discussion group and they don't want anyone with a dissenting view.
If it was an advocacy group organized around an issue I get you don't want dissent. But this sounds exactly like what I described. People who want to be protected from other views.
ctrzaska said:
I'll go out on a limb and surmise that the corresponding local Dem groups on FB wouldn't tolerate a Republican interloper in their midst, particularly with debate that doesn't fit the particular worldview espoused within. Hardly surprising the Rep group would be any different.
The entire planet has become an argument room for these people.
They're looking for the room without an argument.
For all we know they're exchanging pot pie recipes in there.
My impression from the article and political conversations I've had with some local conservatives (I'm not on FB, so I can't speak to ml1's broader observation) is that they'd feel perfectly comfortable in the argument clinic. What they don't need is that first room Palin stumbled into.
tjohn, ctrzaska, pabulum et al....
I'll ask for the gazillionth time. What is the strategy for capturing the vote of the Trump voter? If we're nice to them and respect them they'll come around?
If you can't answer that question, your other opinions on the subject mean jacksh!t.
DaveSchmidt said:My impression from the article and political conversations I've had with some local conservatives (I'm not on FB, so I can't speak to ml1's broader observation) is that they'd feel perfectly comfortable in the argument clinic. What they don't need is that first room Palin stumbled into.
I do not recall what that was, but why would they not come here, Soapbox Politics, to discuss their views?
It seems to me that with the possible exception of DB's posts the most hostile reaction to another's political views I have encountered on MOL were the reactions to our local Olympic Medalist's re-tweeting criticisms of Israel.
I suggest that a local citizen expressing support for the BDS movement would encounter at least as much hostility as a Trump voter.
Of course a local expressing the same view of West Bank settlements as Trump's nominee for Ambassador to Israel would probably encounter great hostility as well.
step 1. Don't start out by describing people you need to bring onboard as a bunch of stupid hicks. When you have mastered step 1 - and honestly, I don't think you have it in you - then we can move to step 2.
drummerboy said:
tjohn, ctrzaska, pabulum et al....
I'll ask for the gazillionth time. What is the strategy for capturing the vote of the Trump voter? If we're nice to them and respect them they'll come around?
If you can't answer that question, your other opinions on the subject mean jacksh!t.
fallacy #1 - who says we need to bring them on board in the first place?
but you don't really have a number 2 step, do you...
tjohn said:
step 1. Don't start out by describing people you need to bring onboard as a bunch of stupid hicks. When you have mastered step 1 - and honestly, I don't think you have it in you - then we can move to step 2.
drummerboy said:
tjohn, ctrzaska, pabulum et al....
I'll ask for the gazillionth time. What is the strategy for capturing the vote of the Trump voter? If we're nice to them and respect them they'll come around?
If you can't answer that question, your other opinions on the subject mean jacksh!t.
from the NYT today
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/21/opinion/move-left-democrats.html?hpw&rref=opinion&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&module=well-region®ion=bottom-well&WT.nav=bottom-well&_r=0
If progressive whites are defecting because they are uninspired by
Democrats, moving further to the right will only deepen their
disillusionment. But if the next D.N.C. chairman can win them back, the
country’s demographic trends will tilt the field in Democrats’ favor. As
Mrs. Clinton’s popular vote margin showed, there is still a new
American majority made up of a meaningful minority of whites and an
overwhelming majority of minorities. Not only is there little evidence
that Democrats can do significantly better with those white
working-class voters who are susceptible to messages laced with racism
and sexism, but that sector of the electorate will continue to shrink in
the coming years. Nearly half of all Democratic votes (46 percent) were
not white in 2016, and over the next four years, 10 million more people
of color will be added to the population, as compared with just 1.5
million whites.
besides, trying to directly appeal to Trump voters, by definition, means moving to the right - the exact thing that needs to be avoided.
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you're a better person than me. If I found that a friend or acquaintance voted for Trump (I have no friends so far that have admitted that) my attitude towards them would be irrevocably altered in a bad way. I'm not sure how I could remain friends with them. It would be as if I didn't know them anymore - that they have revealed a deep, deep fault in themselves that I can't reconcile.