The Mueller Russian Probe Thread
DaveSchmidt said:
nan said:
bub said:Is this not the thread that Jamie set up specifically to discuss Russiagate? Why are you attacking me and not everyone else in this thread who commented on the topic? Why not go after Jamie since he set it up? Martha Gesson is neither Paul, nor I.
Yes, we sheep all have tunnel vision. We can't think about more than one issue. You've noticed that on MOL right Nan? Nobody has any time to criticize Trump about tax policy, healthcare, race bating and on and on because we are myopically and exclusively focused on Russiagate (actually, that describes Paul, not the rest of us).
You may be taking bub’s comment the wrong way. I haven’t watched the video, but the title suggests the gist is that the Russian investigation is taking attention away from more important matters. The fact that you posted it suggests you may feel the same way. Since no one else here is making that argument, there’s no reason for bub to respond to anyone else with the rebuttal that people are able to pay attention to more than one thing at a time.
There have been exceptions that could give anyone a hair trigger, but attacks aren’t lurking in every pointed reply.
ETA: Cross-daved.
In the MOL politics section, there are four active threads on Russiagate with hundreds of posts. The only topic that comes close are recent threads related to the gun control issue. There are several other Trump related threads that touch on Russiagate and some inactive Russiagate threads. Threads on non-Russiagate topics are mostly inactive or have few posts. In the first page there is one on Netanyahu (7 comments), Trump's tax plan (27 comments), NJ Senate race (8 comments), The Dow Jones drop (23 comments) and one on the Dreamers (36 comments). based on MOL, Russiagate is by a large margin the major topic discussed, with immigration, the environment, deregulation, wealth inequality, decimation of the state department, wars, Syria, Yemen, etc. barely on the radar. This has been the case for a year. What do we have to show for all of this discussion? 13 indictments for 3rd rate Facebook trolls, not related to Trump and some shady business deals, as expected. This only helps Trump.
nan said:
In the MOL politics section, there are four active threads on Russiagate with hundreds of posts. The only topic that comes close are recent threads related to the gun control issue. There are several other Trump related threads that touch on Russiagate and some inactive Russiagate threads. Threads on non-Russiagate topics are mostly inactive or have few posts. In the first page there is one on Netanyahu (7 comments), Trump's tax plan (27 comments), NJ Senate race (8 comments), The Dow Jones drop (23 comments) and one on the Dreamers (36 comments). based on MOL, Russiagate is by a large margin the major topic discussed, with immigration, the environment, deregulation, wealth inequality, decimation of the state department, wars, Syria, Yemen, etc. barely on the radar. This has been the case for a year. What do we have to show for all of this discussion? 13 indictments for 3rd rate Facebook trolls, not related to Trump and some shady business deals, as expected. This only helps Trump.
In the politics section, there's hardly anyone taking Trump's side on gun control, Netanyahu, the tax plan, any Congressional race, or immigration. That probably explains why there's not much discussion of those here.
There are a couple of posters taking Trump's side on investigating him for his campaign staff, conflicts of interest, and Russia. That probably explains why there's more discussion of those here.
By the way, if you want to find something that "only helps Trump", I suggest that it's not anything that involves not taking his side.
Speaking only for myself, there are lots of other things I've been able to focus on and learn about without discussing them on MOL.
Paul, the Czar of anti-Russiagatism, is by the far the biggest reason why Russiagate has been an incessant topic on MOL since forever.
When Trump says stupid things, people talk about it. When issues get hot - tax cuts, immigration policy, gun violence etc. - people talk about them.
Your last sentence below shows how you are confusing two points - one, about the inflated merits of Russigate ("what have you got to show for it") and two, whether excess discussion of Russiagate is somehow crowding out discussion of other topics. The latter concept is dubious, even if it comes from an ward winning journalist.
nan said:
DaveSchmidt said:
nan said:
bub said:Is this not the thread that Jamie set up specifically to discuss Russiagate? Why are you attacking me and not everyone else in this thread who commented on the topic? Why not go after Jamie since he set it up? Martha Gesson is neither Paul, nor I.
Yes, we sheep all have tunnel vision. We can't think about more than one issue. You've noticed that on MOL right Nan? Nobody has any time to criticize Trump about tax policy, healthcare, race bating and on and on because we are myopically and exclusively focused on Russiagate (actually, that describes Paul, not the rest of us).
You may be taking bub’s comment the wrong way. I haven’t watched the video, but the title suggests the gist is that the Russian investigation is taking attention away from more important matters. The fact that you posted it suggests you may feel the same way. Since no one else here is making that argument, there’s no reason for bub to respond to anyone else with the rebuttal that people are able to pay attention to more than one thing at a time.
There have been exceptions that could give anyone a hair trigger, but attacks aren’t lurking in every pointed reply.
ETA: Cross-daved.
In the MOL politics section, there are four active threads on Russiagate with hundreds of posts. The only topic that comes close are recent threads related to the gun control issue. There are several other Trump related threads that touch on Russiagate and some inactive Russiagate threads. Threads on non-Russiagate topics are mostly inactive or have few posts. In the first page there is one on Netanyahu (7 comments), Trump's tax plan (27 comments), NJ Senate race (8 comments), The Dow Jones drop (23 comments) and one on the Dreamers (36 comments). based on MOL, Russiagate is by a large margin the major topic discussed, with immigration, the environment, deregulation, wealth inequality, decimation of the state department, wars, Syria, Yemen, etc. barely on the radar. This has been the case for a year. What do we have to show for all of this discussion? 13 indictments for 3rd rate Facebook trolls, not related to Trump and some shady business deals, as expected. This only helps Trump.
Thread started Dec. 2016
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bub said:
Paul, the Czar of anti-Russiagatism, is by the far the biggest reason why Russiagate has been an incessant topic on MOL since forever.
paulsurovell said:
sbenois said:
Jamie,
Please nuke Paul's threads. They bother Nan.
Thanks
sleazenois
Yup.
nohero said:
nan said:
In the MOL politics section, there are four active threads on Russiagate with hundreds of posts. The only topic that comes close are recent threads related to the gun control issue. There are several other Trump related threads that touch on Russiagate and some inactive Russiagate threads. Threads on non-Russiagate topics are mostly inactive or have few posts. In the first page there is one on Netanyahu (7 comments), Trump's tax plan (27 comments), NJ Senate race (8 comments), The Dow Jones drop (23 comments) and one on the Dreamers (36 comments). based on MOL, Russiagate is by a large margin the major topic discussed, with immigration, the environment, deregulation, wealth inequality, decimation of the state department, wars, Syria, Yemen, etc. barely on the radar. This has been the case for a year. What do we have to show for all of this discussion? 13 indictments for 3rd rate Facebook trolls, not related to Trump and some shady business deals, as expected. This only helps Trump.
In the politics section, there's hardly anyone taking Trump's side on gun control, Netanyahu, the tax plan, any Congressional race, or immigration. That probably explains why there's not much discussion of those here.
There are a couple of posters taking Trump's side on investigating him for his campaign staff, conflicts of interest, and Russia. That probably explains why there's more discussion of those here.
By the way, if you want to find something that "only helps Trump", I suggest that it's not anything that involves not taking his side.
Speaking only for myself, there are lots of other things I've been able to focus on and learn about without discussing them on MOL.
The huge emphasis on Russiagate has helped Trump by giving him a distraction and also by sometimes making his crazy twitters correct. It has also spawned a new McCarthyism that is being used to shut down people on the left (progressives). It also lets the Democrats off the hook for losing in 2016 so they don't have to change one bit--and all the Democrats are too busy paying attention to the 13 incompetent FB trolls to notice. Sad this will probably all lead to another phony war, but at least this time I won't be fooled like the rest of you.
Important link to have on this thread - Bill Moyer's Russia timeline:
http://billmoyers.com/story/trump-russia-timeline/
More then 600 entries so far.
Reposted from the #release the documents thread:
A good look at the Trump Tower meeting - what we know, what we don't know (a lot.)
https://www.vox.com/2018/2/26/16964328/trump-tower-meeting-mueller-russia
"other interesting questions have been posed by independent journalist Marcy Wheeler, who has been doing some of the best and most interesting coverage of the Trump-Russia scandal at her site EmptyWheel — work that combines a mastery of the underlying facts with deep subject matter expertise and a talent for skeptical close reading.
When it comes to the Trump Tower meeting, Wheeler posits that the various meeting participants and associated lawyers could be trying to “craft a story” that will provide a seemingly benign explanation for all the potentially incriminating documents and evidence they know of. She says the disclosures so far could be a “limited hangout,” which is a spy term used by Nixon’s aides during the Watergate cover-up. Essentially, this refers to partial admissions meant to serve as a smokescreen to obscure something else.
It’s not, Wheeler posits, that everything we’ve heard about the Trump Tower meeting is totally false. It’s more that it’s incomplete. In particular, her writings have raised several interesting questions about the story. These include, among others:"
The most interesting:
Was there a second part of the meeting we don’t yet know about? This, of course, was Bannon’s theory — that Don Jr. brought up attendees to meet his father. And Wheeler has flagged a recent LA Times story suggesting that the entire Russian group didn’t exit Trump Tower together, and used it to ask whether some in the delegation stayed behind for more conversations afterward.
Have we ever found out what Jr learned in regards to Russian adoptions?
Why was is so critical to have everyone present for a meeting about Russian adoption?
“primarily discussed a program about the adoption of Russian children” when they met in June 2016, according to multiple people with knowledge of the deliberations.
jamie said:
Have we ever found out what Jr learned in regards to Russian adoptions?
Why was is so critical to have everyone present for a meeting about Russian adoption?
“primarily discussed a program about the adoption of Russian children” when they met in June 2016, according to multiple people with knowledge of the deliberations.
Surely you jest.
Very good column in today's NY Times. Manafort in hock to Russian oligarchs/mobsters (same thing, apparently). Trump is his "golden ticket", provided he can make himself useful to said Russian mobsters/Putin allies (also the same thing, apparently). Excerpts:
Thanks to Mueller’s indictments and some revelatory journalism, we have a decent picture of the desperate straits Manafort was in when he joined Team Trump. In the charges unsealed last week, Mueller’s team described a two-part criminal scheme by Manafort and Gates. First, they laundered tens of millions of dollars while working for Viktor Yanukovych, then the Kremlin-aligned president of Ukraine, and his political allies.
In 2014, Yanukovych fled into exile in Russia, and according to Mueller’s indictment, Manafort and Gates’s “Ukraine income dwindled.” That’s when the second part of their scheme began. From 2015 to 2017, in what looks like a frantic scramble for cash, the indictment says, they “fraudulently secured more than $20 million” in bank loans by lying about their finances.
We don’t know why they needed all this money. But we do know that in 2014, lawyers for the Russian oligarch Oleg Deripaska filed a petition in the Cayman Islands claiming that Manafort and Gates couldn’t account for almost $19 million that a company controlled by Deripaska had given them to invest.
...
But in 2016, he seems to have glimpsed salvation in Trump’s presidential campaign. Manafort wrote to Trump offering to work free, and Trump, famously tightfisted, accepted. He joined the campaign in March, and in May was promoted to campaign chairman, with Gates as his deputy.
Immediately, Manafort sought to use his role in the campaign to repair his relationship with Deripaska. In April, as The Washington Post reported, he emailed an employee in Kiev about his new job, and wrote, apparently in relation to Deripaska, “How do we use to get whole?” In July, Manafort offered to give Deripaska private briefings about the campaign.
...
Perhaps Trump didn’t realize that his campaign was being run by alleged Russian money launderers, that at least two of his foreign policy advisers had entanglements with Russian intelligence, and that his campaign had a heads up about Russian plans to dump stolen Clinton emails online. None of last week’s new information proves that Trump is too disloyal to his own country to be president. But the only alternative is that he’s too clueless.
Donald the great businessman didn't realize that if you're not paying for it, you're not the customer, you're the product.
nohero said:
Very good column in today's NY Times. Manafort in hock to Russian oligarchs/mobsters (same thing, apparently). Trump is his "golden ticket", provided he can make himself useful to said Russian mobsters/Putin allies (also the same thing, apparently). Excerpts:
Perhaps Trump didn’t realize that his campaign was being run by alleged Russian money launderers, that at least two of his foreign policy advisers had entanglements with Russian intelligence, and that his campaign had a heads up about Russian plans to dump stolen Clinton emails online. None of last week’s new information proves that Trump is too disloyal to his own country to be president. But the only alternative is that he’s too clueless.
I do not know why Trump has not yet claimed to be a victim of Manafort. He doesn't have to admit to being clueless. He calls the media "dishonest" and Hillary "crooked". At some point will he attack Manafort or Page?
i dunno. I'm starting to like the guy. 
nan said:
paulsurovell said:
sbenois said:
Jamie,
Please nuke Paul's threads. They bother Nan.
Thanks
sleazenois
Yup.
ml1 said:
Ken Starr says Mueller may be overstepping his mandate
My understanding is that it has no boundaries. That's why I am hesitant about these appointments.
It has led to Bill and the blue dress, Scooter Libby being found guilty of obstruction, and Muller indicting people who can be squeezed for dirt on Trump.
Aside from which, these Counsels were tasked with investigating crimes which the above had committed. Mueller has been tasked with finding a crime.
really?
What crime did Clinton commit that instigated the Whitewater investigation?
BCC said:
ml1 said:
Ken Starr says Mueller may be overstepping his mandate
My understanding is that it has no boundaries. That's why I am hesitant about these appointments.
It has led to Bill and the blue dress, Scooter Libby being found guilty of obstruction, and Muller indicting people who can be squeezed for dirt on Trump.
Aside from which, these Counsels were tasked with investigating crimes which the above had committed. Mueller has been tasked with finding a crime.
For that matter, conservatives tied themselves in knots insisting that no crime was committed in putting Valerie Plame.
BCC said:Aside from which, these Counsels were tasked with investigating crimes which the above had committed. Mueller has been tasked with finding a crime.
They are all tasked with finding a crime, which was one of Justice's Scalia's main criticisms of the Special Counsel Law. In his dissent from the decision upholding the law he said that the normal way the law works is that a crime is committed and the police try to find out who committed it. A Special Prosecutor starts out with a specific individual and tries to find a crime.
Though on the other hand, how else would you investigate a conspiracy -- which as I understand it doesn't require that any crime be actually committed, only planned.
That's the pot calling the kettle black. Starr investigated for FOUR YEARS prior to issuing the Starr Report.
Starr's initial mandate had nothing to do with Clinton having an affair.
drummerboy said:
really?
What crime did Clinton commit that instigated the Whitewater investigation?
BCC said:
ml1 said:
Ken Starr says Mueller may be overstepping his mandate
My understanding is that it has no boundaries. That's why I am hesitant about these appointments.
It has led to Bill and the blue dress, Scooter Libby being found guilty of obstruction, and Muller indicting people who can be squeezed for dirt on Trump.
Aside from which, these Counsels were tasked with investigating crimes which the above had committed. Mueller has been tasked with finding a crime.
drummerboy said:
really?
What crime did Clinton commit that instigated the Whitewater investigation?
BCC said:
ml1 said:
Ken Starr says Mueller may be overstepping his mandate
My understanding is that it has no boundaries. That's why I am hesitant about these appointments.
It has led to Bill and the blue dress, Scooter Libby being found guilty of obstruction, and Muller indicting people who can be squeezed for dirt on Trump.
Aside from which, these Counsels were tasked with investigating crimes which the above had committed. Mueller has been tasked with finding a crime.
Really!
HE committed PERJURY!
ETA removed sentence
BCC - did you read the question? What crime instigated the Whitewater investigation?
Clinton committed perjury SEVERAL YEARS AFTER the investigation started.
BCC said:
drummerboy said:
really?
What crime did Clinton commit that instigated the Whitewater investigation?
BCC said:
ml1 said:
Ken Starr says Mueller may be overstepping his mandate
My understanding is that it has no boundaries. That's why I am hesitant about these appointments.
It has led to Bill and the blue dress, Scooter Libby being found guilty of obstruction, and Muller indicting people who can be squeezed for dirt on Trump.
Aside from which, these Counsels were tasked with investigating crimes which the above had committed. Mueller has been tasked with finding a crime.
Really!
HE committed PERJURY!
You seem to have a problem with facts and come to think of it I'm getting tired of tutoring you.
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NPR has a new podcast series on Trump- last one is on the russian connection
https://www.npr.org/podcasts/583340964/trump-inc