Admittedly my interactions with the hard core Trumpers are limited to social media. But most of the ones I encounter aren't "enemies" of anyone really. They live in a complete opposite reality than those of us who oppose Trump. It's almost as if they are living a delusion or a hallucination. They believe a whole constellation of things that are objectively and observably false. Many of these people seem more like victims themselves than victimizers. I have no idea what the solution is to a country in which 100 million people are living outside objective reality. But I'm pretty sure our problem isn't that they are an enemy within.
It sometimes makes me think of kids who are bullies at school because they're being abused mentally or physically at home.
This thread seemed like such a good idea yesterday.
dude, if you'd have narrowed your focus JUST A BIT beyond "Trump supporters" maybe you'd have got a more sympathetic response.
I can't do it. Given the egregiousness of Trump, no one gets a pass anymore. Maybe for the 2016 election, but not now after 3.5 years of his craziness.
In important research, Schaffner and his colleagues found that the denial that racism or sexism exists in America was the best predictor in the 2016 election of support for Trump, far more than any measures of economic distress. On the other side, Schaffner found that the belief that racism and sexism are serious problems predicted support for Clinton more powerfully than economic attitudes, as well.
“Now the parties are very clearly sorted on issues of identity politics,” Schaffner says. “If you have fairly racist or sexist views you are … very likely to be a Republican. And if you have the opposite views you are very likely to be in the Democratic Party.”
Just started reading this thread and my initial reaction was, "haven't we always been this divided? " Didn't half the country call one group hippies and that group refer to the others as rednecks? The movie Easy Rider came to mind. I was ready to conclude that the only difference is that we have social media and cable news where every emotion is magnified by angry rhetoric and spread in seconds across the country, replete with videos.
So my question is, "haven't we always been this divided?"
I can't do it. Given the egregiousness of Trump, no one gets a pass anymore. Maybe for the 2016 election, but not now after 3.5 years of his craziness.
In important research, Schaffner and his colleagues found that the denial that racism or sexism exists in America was the best predictor in the 2016 election of support for Trump, far more than any measures of economic distress. On the other side, Schaffner found that the belief that racism and sexism are serious problems predicted support for Clinton more powerfully than economic attitudes, as well.
“Now the parties are very clearly sorted on issues of identity politics,” Schaffner says. “If you have fairly racist or sexist views you are … very likely to be a Republican. And if you have the opposite views you are very likely to be in the Democratic Party.”
So don't tell me they're single issue voters.
It's always about the racism. (and other -isms)
even the dude conducting the research hedges on whether or not this describes ALL Trump supporters.
Just started reading this thread and my initial reaction was, "haven't we always been this divided? " Didn't half the country call one group hippies and that group refer to the others as rednecks? The movie Easy Rider came to mind. I was ready to conclude that the only difference is that we have social media and cable news where every emotion is magnified by angry rhetoric and spread in seconds across the country, replete with videos.
So my question is, "haven't we always been this divided?"
The division in the past has never been defined by having completely different views of reality to this extent.
Just started reading this thread and my initial reaction was, "haven't we always been this divided? " Didn't half the country call one group hippies and that group refer to the others as rednecks? The movie Easy Rider came to mind. I was ready to conclude that the only difference is that we have social media and cable news where every emotion is magnified by angry rhetoric and spread in seconds across the country, replete with videos.
So my question is, "haven't we always been this divided?"
We're at a high point of polarization now. Here's an interactive from Pew -- you can compare years from 2017 back through 1994:
I don't know what it subjectively felt like in the 60s and 70s or if what an attempt to measure polarization from now to then would look like. The lines of division seem starker in many ways though -- give me your zip code and I can with a pretty high degree of accuracy tell you who you voted for. Give me one more piece of demographic information -- say highest completed educational level -- and I can almost guarantee an accurate guess. We're so cleanly divided now that in many cases you could probably make a highly accurate guess on that second piece of demographic from the zip code alone.
The division in the past has never been defined by having completely different views of reality to this extent.
Except that much of what the other side claims to believe, seems desperately tied to their dislike and distrust of us. They seem to define us as unpatriotic, godless, baby killers, elitists, etc. So they chose to believe what their current leader, Trump, tells them. It's not that they know or don't know if the wall was built, it's that Trump said it is and they believe he is on their side so we are the liars.
They get a " completely different view of reality" from the news. I flip on FOX and catch a few moments of news coverage that is completely different from the topics on CNN or MSNBC. Tonight I caught Mike Lee talking about a film which he suggested was exploiting children. From the clip I saw it was believable. I didn't stay with it long enough to get the entire story and in moments there was coverage of the fact that Biden was a couple of hours late for an event which the other stations hadn't mentioned was about to happen.
There are issues that are covered on Rachel Maddow, like tonight's discussion of illegal hysterectomies in detention centers which will never be shown on FOX.
So that gets back to my earlier thought :
"but I was ready to conclude that the only difference is that we have social media and cable news where every emotion is magnified by angry rhetoric and spread in seconds across the country, replete with videos"
The division in the past has never been defined by having completely different views of reality to this extent.
Except that much of what the other side claims to believe, seems desperately tied to their dislike and distrust of us. They seem to define us as unpatriotic, godless, baby killers, elitists, etc. So they chose to believe what their current leader, Trump, tells them. It's not that they know or don't know if the wall was built, it's that Trump said it is and they believe he is on their side so we are the liars.
They get a " completely different view of reality" from the news. I flip on FOX and catch a few moments of news coverage that is completely different from the topics on CNN or MSNBC. Tonight I caught Mike Lee talking about a film which he suggested was exploiting children. From the clip I saw it was believable. I didn't stay with it long enough to get the entire story and in moments there was coverage of the fact that Biden was a couple of hours late for an event which the other stations hadn't mentioned was about to happen.
There are issues that are covered on Rachel Maddow, like tonight's discussion of illegal hysterectomies in detention centers which will never be shown on FOX.
So that gets back to my earlier thought :
"but I was ready to conclude that the only difference is that we have social media and cable news where every emotion is magnified by angry rhetoric and spread in seconds across the country, replete with videos"
I'm not quite sure of your point here. You're describing why they have a separate reality. OK. Agreed.
The division in the past has never been defined by having completely different views of reality to this extent.
Except that much of what the other side claims to believe, seems desperately tied to their dislike and distrust of us.
This dislike and distrust of us is based on portrayals that are presented with the specific purpose of getting them to dislike and distrust us. It has nothing to do with truth. As adults with the right to vote, they have a responsibility to do a little bit of homework to figure this out.
This is utter horsesh!t in today's environment. (plus, I'm not sure who ever "celebrated" the Matlin-Carville marriage. I've thought it was quite bizarre from day one, and was mostly a pairing of two grifters.)
The disagreements are not over whether to tax the rich or not. They're about how we are to respond to an existential threat to our democracy.
Co-sign. One of the under told stories of our age is the way politics-as-religion has rotted away at friendships, families and romances. Or made marriages we once celebrated, like Carville-Matalin, impossible from the start. https://t.co/lzYTKHX7cm
And to the Weiss tweet, it's because I agree politics-as-religion is bad that I'm in the Democratic political coalition. There's too much disagreement within it for it be coalesce that strongly -- conservative whining about liberal "orthodoxy" is by and large an exercise in projection, imo. Give me a place where Sanders and Bloomberg are both somehow in the same party.
And to the Weiss tweet, it's because I agree politics-as-religion is bad that I'm in the Democratic political coalition. There's too much disagreement within it for it be coalesce that strongly -- conservative whining about liberal "orthodoxy" is by and large an exercise in projection, imo. Give me a place where Sanders and Bloomberg are both somehow in the same party.
Bari Weiss is a huge contributor to the false equivalency problem in punditry. It's idiotic to think that I couldn't get along with someone because they think the Green New Deal and Medicare for All are bad ideas. If it was just about disagreeing on policies, it would be no big deal if someone I know is a Trumper. But it's not virtuous IMHO to put aside the lying, the cruelty, the bigotry and the incompetence that a Trump supporter is complicit in. It's not "tribal" to recognize what terrible immorality is being propped up by current day Republicans. It's lazy and stupid to "both sides" the issue of Donald Trump. Anyone with a shred of humanity should stand in opposition to Trump and Trumpism.
And to the Weiss tweet, it's because I agree politics-as-religion is bad that I'm in the Democratic political coalition. There's too much disagreement within it for it be coalesce that strongly -- conservative whining about liberal "orthodoxy" is by and large an exercise in projection, imo. Give me a place where Sanders and Bloomberg are both somehow in the same party.
Bari Weiss is a phony because she accuses people with different political opinions from hers, about Israel, of being anti-semitic - in other words, the type of behavior she claims to be against.
I'm not quite sure of your point here. You're describing why they have a separate reality. OK. Agreed.
Yeah I was kind of wondering if I was making my point but, I guess I'm just hoping things are not worse. I'm finding an odd consolation in my feeling that they always hated us. How weird is it that I'm finding that reassuring?
Maybe the fact that we have survived their disdain in the past makes me confident that we will not escalate into something worse. I'm hanging onto threads here.
ok, are the people cheering for the shooting of Ali Velshi "enemies" as I explained in the OP?
or should we just leave it as "deplorables"?
"It was the most beautiful thing ... it's called law and order" -- Trump gloats about @AliVelshi getting hit by a rubber bullet in Minneapolis. Sick stuff. pic.twitter.com/bgKSmmL8O7
I know that to make a sweeping generalization is unwise, but for the life of me, I can't recall ever hearing about, or from, a Trump supporter that makes me feel like they're a reasonable person.
Maybe they're out there, but I've not seen them.
But if that's what the issue is, the percentage of enemies seems to me to be pretty damn high.
At best, the most reasonable people are probably the low-information voters who simply aren't aware of how bad Trump actually is, but you know, that's not much of an excuse, considering the stakes.
It sometimes makes me think of kids who are bullies at school because they're being abused mentally or physically at home.