The mass shooting today.
PVW said:
I'm surprised someone who personally chose a shotgun doesn't see a problem with an AR-15. Those are quite different guns.
I do not need an AR15, or similar firearm. Thus, no reason to purchase one. My take is that any firearm can be used for horrific, murderous purposes. The press has sensationalized "assault weapons" because it drives clicks and eyeballs. And, yes, AR15s, or similar firearms, are sometimes used in horrific crimes. But, the majority of murders are committed with hand guns. I find focusing on the firearm rather than the shooter to be problematic. Even if firearms are not available, troubled individuals can still use automobiles and trucks to commit mass murder and mayhem. Thus, the banning of AR15s is unlikely to solve the problem.
RealityForAll said:
It is difficult to imagine such a limitation being successful for a variety of reasons. Why do you want to focus on the firearm rather than the alleged shooters?
I'd say that as a generally applicable rule, laws and regulations should focus on actions and outcomes rather than on people and intent. In the first place, that's far more practical -- we do not have the ability now, and quite likely never will, to be able to peer into someone's psyche and determine their beliefs and future activities. Trying to sort out "good guys" from "bad guys", or develop some sort of Minority Report pre-cog tech, is impossible. In the second place, at least in open democratic societies, it is far beyond the legitimate remit of government to try and enforce what people should believe or what "kind" of person one ought to be.
Is someone who believes strongly that they may be threatened at any time and needs a gun to defend themselves more likely to kill someone? Probably I guess, but seems it depends more on how accessible powerful guns are. I'll take a society where lots of people have that belief but few have easy access to powerful guns over one where few people have that belief but guns are ubiquitous. And on the question of drugs or mental illness, can we really predict the course of one's life into the future? A stable, mentally sound individual who has an arsenal today may fall into mental trouble later in life, and still have all their weapons -- surely the more pragmatic, and more legitimate, question is to ask whether it makes sense for powerful weapons to be available in the first place rather than try to predict who will have mental health issues in the future?
RealityForAll said:
I do not need an AR15, or similar firearm. Thus, no reason to purchase one.
But does anyone need one? What legitimate reason does anyone have to purchase or otherwise aquire an AR-15?
My take is that any firearm can be used for horrific, murderous purposes. The press has sensationalized "assault weapons" because it drives clicks and eyeballs. And, yes, AR15s, or similar firearms, are sometimes used in horrific crimes. But, the majority of murders are committed with hand guns. I find focusing on the firearm rather than the shooter to be problematic. Even if firearms are not available, troubled individuals can still use automobiles and trucks to commit mass murder and mayhem. Thus, the banning of AR15s is unlikely to solve the problem.
Scale and absolute numbers matter. To say we are going to eliminate deadly attack using machines would be an impractical goal. To say we are going to dramatically reduce them is not. Cars and tracks can be, and sometimes are, used to kill people intentionally. The scale is nothing like that for firearms, and we don't have the same kind of cultural resistance to making cars and trucks safer that we do for firearms (there is resistance to it, centering around our car-first culture, but that's different in kind from second amendment absolutism).
I reject the argument that an inability to eliminate gun violence means we can't do anything to reduce it.
PVW said:
RealityForAll said:
I do not need an AR15, or similar firearm. Thus, no reason to purchase one.
But does anyone need one? What legitimate reason does anyone have to purchase or otherwise aquire an AR-15?
My take is that any firearm can be used for horrific, murderous purposes. The press has sensationalized "assault weapons" because it drives clicks and eyeballs. And, yes, AR15s, or similar firearms, are sometimes used in horrific crimes. But, the majority of murders are committed with hand guns. I find focusing on the firearm rather than the shooter to be problematic. Even if firearms are not available, troubled individuals can still use automobiles and trucks to commit mass murder and mayhem. Thus, the banning of AR15s is unlikely to solve the problem.Scale and absolute numbers matter. To say we are going to eliminate deadly attack using machines would be an impractical goal. To say we are going to dramatically reduce them is not. Cars and tracks can be, and sometimes are, used to kill people intentionally. The scale is nothing like that for firearms, and we don't have the same kind of cultural resistance to making cars and trucks safer that we do for firearms (there is resistance to it, centering around our car-first culture, but that's different in kind from second amendment absolutism).
I reject the argument that an inability to eliminate gun violence means we can't do anything to reduce it.
there's plenty of existing evidence to show that states can use regulation to lessen gun deaths (at least before the SCOTUS decided to put limits on what gun control regulations states can pass).
The rates of gun deaths (homicides and suicides) are multiples lower on a per capita basis in NJ, NY, MA and other states that more tightly regulate guns, compared to states with less regulation.
it's flat out untrue to claim nothing can be done to reduce gun deaths, when there is strong evidence in the states that plenty can be done.
this ranker relies on 2020 data, but there's no reason to believe the state rankings have changed much since.
Here's a comparison:
NJ (5 gun deaths/100,000 pop.)
states in the news recently for mass shootings:
TN (21.3 gun deaths/100,000 pop.)
TX (14.2 gun deaths/100,000 pop.)
RealityForAll said:
I do not need an AR15, or similar firearm. Thus, no reason to purchase one. My take is that any firearm can be used for horrific, murderous purposes. The press has sensationalized "assault weapons" because it drives clicks and eyeballs. And, yes, AR15s, or similar firearms, are sometimes used in horrific crimes. But, the majority of murders are committed with hand guns. I find focusing on the firearm rather than the shooter to be problematic. Even if firearms are not available, troubled individuals can still use automobiles and trucks to commit mass murder and mayhem. Thus, the banning of AR15s is unlikely to solve the problem.
Any firearm can be used, but some are more "problematic" than others.
“He has a battle rifle”: Police feared Uvalde gunman’s AR-15 | The Texas Tribune
Once they saw a torrent of bullets tear through a classroom wall and metal door, the first police officers in the hallway of Robb Elementary School concluded they were outgunned. And that they could die.
The gunman had an AR-15, a rifle design used by U.S. soldiers in every conflict since Vietnam. Its bullets flew toward the officers at three times the speed of sound and could have pierced their body armor like a hole punch through paper. They grazed two officers in the head, and the group retreated.
Uvalde Police Department Sgt. Daniel Coronado stepped outside, breathing heavily, and got on his radio to warn the others.
“I have a male subject with an AR,” Coronado said.
The dispatch crackled on the radio of another officer on the opposite side of the building.
“****,” that officer said.
“AR,” another exclaimed, alerting others nearby.
Almost a year after Texas’ deadliest school shooting killed 19 children and two teachers, there is still confusion among investigators, law enforcement leaders and politicians over how nearly 400 law enforcement officers could have performed so poorly. People have blamed cowardice or poor leadership or a lack of sufficient training for why police waited more than an hour to breach the classroom and subdue an amateur 18-year-old adversary.
But in their own words, during and after their botched response, the officers pointed to another reason: They were unwilling to confront the rifle on the other side of the door.
and the notion that killers will find other ways to kill if they can't access a gun is also BS. Latest full year data from the CDC shows that generally states with fewer guns also tend to have lower homicide rates overall.
As you know, it’s not easy to own guns privately in Australia, and we can’t own semi-automatics (I think certain rifle clubs can, and they’re up there).
This week, people have been convicted for murdering others by burning down their house, and in another case by pursuing them with an axe. No, you don’t need bullets to do mischief. But pretty much overall, your neighbourhood is safer.
joanne said:
This week, people have been convicted for murdering others by burning down their house, and in another case by pursuing them with an axe.
The Shining would have been a rather different movie if Jack had an AR-15.
RealityForAll said:
The toxicology report of the Nashville Covenant School shooter, Audrey Hale, still has not been released despite repeated demands for the toxicology results. See pic.
Link:
https://www.offthepress.com/nashville-police-refuse-to-release-school-shooters-toxicology-report/
Can I be safe in the knowledge that you will report the results of the toxicology report for yesterday's Dallas shooter to us as soon as they are released?
I would like to trust that you will but your failure to share the results of that report in the Giffords shooting have eroded my confidence in you.
GoSlugs said:
RealityForAll said:
The toxicology report of the Nashville Covenant School shooter, Audrey Hale, still has not been released despite repeated demands for the toxicology results. See pic.
Link:
https://www.offthepress.com/nashville-police-refuse-to-release-school-shooters-toxicology-report/
Can I be safe in the knowledge that you will report the results of the toxicology report for yesterday's Dallas shooter to us as soon as they are released?
I would like to trust that you will but your failure to share the results of that report in the Giffords shooting have eroded my confidence in you.
I have not been following the Dallas incident as I have been unavailable for the last few days. Perhaps you can fill us all in. I have not recently discussed Gifford's shooting (from what had to be five or six years - please confirn). IIRC, the shooter of Gifford was under-the-influence (or perhaps a frequent abuser) of the hallucinogenic Salvia plant. Please advise whether there is a connection between the Gifford shooter and a hallucinogen. Thanks for your patience.
RealityForAll said:
I have not been following the Dallas incident as I have been unavailable for the last few days. Perhaps you can fill us all in. I have not recently discussed Gifford's shooting (from what had to be five or six years - please confirn). IIRC, the shooter of Gifford was under-the-influence (or perhaps a frequent abuser) of the hallucinogenic Salvia plant. Please advise whether there is a connection between the Gifford shooter and a hallucinogen. Thanks for your patience.
You just seem very obsessed with something you apparently know very little about.
That's sort of your "signature".
GoSlugs said:
RealityForAll said:
I have not been following the Dallas incident as I have been unavailable for the last few days. Perhaps you can fill us all in. I have not recently discussed Gifford's shooting (from what had to be five or six years - please confirn). IIRC, the shooter of Gifford was under-the-influence (or perhaps a frequent abuser) of the hallucinogenic Salvia plant. Please advise whether there is a connection between the Gifford shooter and a hallucinogen. Thanks for your patience.
You just seem very obsessed about something with something you apparently know very little about.
My understanding is that a toxicology screen is standard operating procedure ("SOP") when there is an automotive death or serious injury. Why would a firearm death, or a serious firearm injury, have a different protocol or procedure?
I am merely attempting to better understand these sorts of incidents. Why are you throwing around the word "obsession" as a result of the fact that I am merely requesting investigation data (namely, toxicology report results)?
RealityForAll said:
My understanding is that a toxicology screen is standard operating procedure ("SOP") when there is an automotive death or serious injury. Why would a firearm death, or a serious firearm injury, have a different protocol or procedure?
You have to have a license to drive a car. Why shouldn't you have to have a license to cause a firearm death?
I am so sick of Shooter's Rights.
RealityForAll said:
I have not been following the Dallas incident as I have been unavailable for the last few days. Perhaps you can fill us all in. I have not recently discussed Gifford's shooting (from what had to be five or six years - please confirn). IIRC, the shooter of Gifford was under-the-influence (or perhaps a frequent abuser) of the hallucinogenic Salvia plant. Please advise whether there is a connection between the Gifford shooter and a hallucinogen. Thanks for your patience.
maybe the fact that lots of people use intoxicants should be a strong rationale for more stringent restrictions on firearms.
A dude flying on salvia without a gun isn't all that dangerous.
RealityForAll said:
My understanding is that a toxicology screen is standard operating procedure ("SOP") when there is an automotive death or serious injury. Why would a firearm death, or a serious firearm injury, have a different protocol or procedure?
When the driver is dead, a toxicology screen is not SOP. It’s performed on only about two-thirds of dead drivers, according to the Governors Highway Safety Association (2018 report, Drug-Impaired Driving, Page 33). That’s because the main reason for a test after a serious crash is to shed light on possible criminal culpability, which is moot if the driver who caused it is dead.
Audrey Hale is dead, and the criminality of the mass shooting isn’t in question. Your DUI analogy makes no point that I can see.
I’m very confused. Salvia is sage. As in cooking, or ornamental gardens, or painkillers/inflammation control. (Yes roughly a thousand varieties, but still this is what all are known for) Salvia makes you sleepy, at its worst.
Why should a should it matter if a shooter had had a lamb fillet with sage stuffing??
- Puzzled, in Australia
joanne said:
I’m very confused. Salvia is sage. As in cooking, or ornamental gardens, or painkillers/inflammation control. (Yes roughly a thousand varieties, but still this is what all are known for) Salvia makes you sleepy, at its worst.
Why should a should it matter if a shooter had had a lamb fillet with sage stuffing??
- Puzzled, in Australia
salvia divinorum is a hallucinogenic
Investigators examine Texas gunman’s white supremacist views after 8 killed (WaPo)
I have to say, I don't really care what the gunman's views were. Or if he had mental issues. Or if he was on drugs. Or really anything else, beyond the fact that he was able to acquire and use a weapon designed to easily kill many people in a short amount of time.
Again, I'll throw this to RFA since he's a gun owner willing to be on this thread and engage on this -- how do we stop this from happening as often? Surely there's some way that respects the second amendment that still puts meaningful restrictions on how easy it is to acquire and use these powerful deadly weapons? We're a country that has no shortage of people willing to engage in deadly violence. That's not going to change any time soon. Can't we do something so that when people are gripped by the urge to commit violence -- for whatever reason is driving them -- it's difficult for them to act on it, and the number of people they can potentially harm is reduced?
The Sage entry at Medline Plus (which I assume will cover it) isn’t loading.
Ah! Ok. So, thujone might be why everyone wonders about it. But:
“If consumed internally, thujone can be neurotoxic, convulsant, and hallucinogenic. Long-term or excessive use of thujone-rich products can cause restlessness, vomiting, vertigo, tremors, renal damage, and convulsions.” Wikipedia
None of that seems sufficient reason to blame any sage (or lavender, rosemary, or thyme) for a mass shooting. (It seems most of these incidents aren’t totally random events)
ml1 said:
salvia divinorum is a hallucinogenic
PVW said:
Investigators examine Texas gunman’s white supremacist views after 8 killed (WaPo)
I have to say, I don't really care what the gunman's views were. Or if he had mental issues. Or if he was on drugs. Or really anything else, beyond the fact that he was able to acquire and use a weapon designed to easily kill many people in a short amount of time.
Again, I'll throw this to RFA since he's a gun owner willing to be on this thread and engage on this -- how do we stop this from happening as often? Surely there's some way that respects the second amendment that still puts meaningful restrictions on how easy it is to acquire and use these powerful deadly weapons? We're a country that has no shortage of people willing to engage in deadly violence. That's not going to change any time soon. Can't we do something so that when people are gripped by the urge to commit violence -- for whatever reason is driving them -- it's difficult for them to act on it, and the number of people they can potentially harm is reduced?
Quick response to possible prevention items and areas of concern (just spitballing here - unlikely that there is one silver bullet):
1. Change community values so that residents of Cleveland TX (and similarly situated communities) do NOT believe getting loaded and shooting firearms repeatedly is normal (despite having one acre lots).
2. We have not received the toxicology report for Mr. Operesa. Make toxicology screen reports public for all deaths and serious injuries.
3. Come up with a process of how to handle individuals/neighbors with firearms who have history of domestic violence, outstanding warrants or an ICE hold.. In Clevelandc TX, it appears that shooter began shooting neighbors after neighbor asked stop shooting or call police. This very normal request by victim neighbor may have caused shooter to panic, have homicidal thoughts, etc.
4. Determine how Oporesa obtained the firearm.
5. Determine how Oporesa was deported four times previously but was once again in the US. Despite having prior LE interactions in domestic violence complaint and DUI incident.
6. How to make sure that the shooter is identified properly as quickly as possible. In the Cleveland TX shooting, the shooter was misidentified as a Houston truck driver with a similar name.
My initial thoughts.
RealityForAll said:
Quick response to possible prevention items and areas of concern (just spitballing here - unlikely that there is one silver bullet):
1. Change community values so that residents of Cleveland TX (and similarly situated communities) do NOT believe getting loaded and shooting firearms repeatedly is normal (despite having one acre lots).
2. We have not received the toxicology report for Mr. Operesa. Make toxicology screen reports public for all deaths and serious injuries.
3. Come up with a process of how to handle individuals/neighbors with firearms who have history of domestic violence, outstanding warrants or an ICE hold.. In Clevelandc TX, it appears that shooter began shooting neighbors after neighbor asked stop shooting or call police. This very normal request by victim neighbor may have caused shooter to panic, have homicidal thoughts, etc.
4. Determine how Oporesa obtained the firearm.
5. Determine how Oporesa was deported four times previously but was once again in the US. Despite having prior LE interactions in domestic violence complaint and DUI incident.
6. How to make sure that the shooter is identified properly as quickly as possible. In the Cleveland TX shooting, the shooter was misidentified as a Houston truck driver with a similar name.
My initial thoughts.
Can you please explain further how 2, 5 and 6 would help prevent further senseless acts of mass murder?
RealityForAll said:
PVW said:
Investigators examine Texas gunman’s white supremacist views after 8 killed (WaPo)
I have to say, I don't really care what the gunman's views were. Or if he had mental issues. Or if he was on drugs. Or really anything else, beyond the fact that he was able to acquire and use a weapon designed to easily kill many people in a short amount of time.
Again, I'll throw this to RFA since he's a gun owner willing to be on this thread and engage on this -- how do we stop this from happening as often? Surely there's some way that respects the second amendment that still puts meaningful restrictions on how easy it is to acquire and use these powerful deadly weapons? We're a country that has no shortage of people willing to engage in deadly violence. That's not going to change any time soon. Can't we do something so that when people are gripped by the urge to commit violence -- for whatever reason is driving them -- it's difficult for them to act on it, and the number of people they can potentially harm is reduced?
Quick response to possible prevention items and areas of concern (just spitballing here - unlikely that there is one silver bullet):
1. Change community values so that residents of Cleveland TX (and similarly situated communities) do NOT believe getting loaded and shooting firearms repeatedly is normal (despite having one acre lots).
2. We have not received the toxicology report for Mr. Operesa. Make toxicology screen reports public for all deaths and serious injuries.
3. Come up with a process of how to handle individuals/neighbors with firearms who have history of domestic violence, outstanding warrants or an ICE hold.. In Clevelandc TX, it appears that shooter began shooting neighbors after neighbor asked stop shooting or call police. This very normal request by victim neighbor may have caused shooter to panic, have homicidal thoughts, etc.
4. Determine how Oporesa obtained the firearm.
5. Determine how Oporesa was deported four times previously but was once again in the US. Despite having prior LE interactions in domestic violence complaint and DUI incident.
6. How to make sure that the shooter is identified properly as quickly as possible. In the Cleveland TX shooting, the shooter was misidentified as a Houston truck driver with a similar name.
My initial thoughts.
you left out prayers
RealityForAll said:
(just spitballing here - unlikely that there is one silver bullet):
The carelessness goes without saying.
DaveSchmidt said:
RealityForAll said:
(just spitballing here - unlikely that there is one silver bullet):
The carelessness goes without saying.
Please provide details.
ml1 said:
you left out prayers
Not to mention the always important thoughts
GoSlugs said:
RealityForAll said:
Quick response to possible prevention items and areas of concern (just spitballing here - unlikely that there is one silver bullet):
1. Change community values so that residents of Cleveland TX (and similarly situated communities) do NOT believe getting loaded and shooting firearms repeatedly is normal (despite having one acre lots).
2. We have not received the toxicology report for Mr. Operesa. Make toxicology screen reports public for all deaths and serious injuries.
3. Come up with a process of how to handle individuals/neighbors with firearms who have history of domestic violence, outstanding warrants or an ICE hold.. In Clevelandc TX, it appears that shooter began shooting neighbors after neighbor asked stop shooting or call police. This very normal request by victim neighbor may have caused shooter to panic, have homicidal thoughts, etc.
4. Determine how Oporesa obtained the firearm.
5. Determine how Oporesa was deported four times previously but was once again in the US. Despite having prior LE interactions in domestic violence complaint and DUI incident.
6. How to make sure that the shooter is identified properly as quickly as possible. In the Cleveland TX shooting, the shooter was misidentified as a Houston truck driver with a similar name.
My initial thoughts.
Can you please explain further how 2, 5 and 6 would help prevent further senseless acts of mass murder?
Response to GoSlugs' Question on Point 2: if there is a relationship between intoxicants, pharmaceuticals, hallucinogens, etc. and a homicidal response then a cure can be fashioned. Before we can make such an association, we need the toxicology data gathered and analyzed.
PS I will get to my response regarding GoSlugs'question on points 5 and 6 when I have a little more time. Thanks for your patience.
Can being on a Russian website promoting hateful rhetoric against Jews and the people these MAGATS hate be classified as a drug? The latest one in Texas is pro Russian. See the connection?
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only you have been focusing on such legal ramifications of these cases for the shooters. The Cleveland attacker will have lawyers to represent him and look for such reasons to plead down from premeditated murder. It's of interest to me only as a curiosity in this individual instance. It means little with regard to the larger question of gun violence in the U.S., and whether or not there are legal methods to reduce it.
for the rest of us the question remains why did a person like that need an AR-15, and why should they be readily available to civilians in many U.S. states?