South Mountain Tavern closed

cramer said:
Runner_Guy - I don't think it's a large factor. Above had a PILOT. 

I think SO's property taxes are a small factor for any one restauranteur's decision not to open here, but since what often attracts restaurants to a town is the presence of other successful restaurants, I think even a small factor in one entrepreneur's decision can present an accumulating problem for South Orange.  

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Let's say there is a very careful investor who weighs out all the variables in an investment.  If that investor factors in the property tax burden and realizes that the extra $5,000 in taxes he or she would pay on a $500,000 property makes a South Orange restaurant an inferior investment compared to something else, he or she is less likely to make that South Orange investment.

This works against South Orange in terms of investing in a SO restaurant compared to investing in a restaurant in another town or a South Orange restaurant compared to a passive investment in the stock market.

Think of the Cryan's site, and how it was vacant from 2013 to the present (it is reportedly under renovation to become "the Suite Spot")

Someone had had a vision of extending the Papillion liquor license to Cryan's and reopening Cryan's as a "warehouse chic" restaurant, but that person could not find an investor to put in $700,000.

Anyway, of all the stuff I've ever posted on MOL, the above isn't something I feel supremely confident about, but I think our sky-high property taxes directly and indirectly do a lot of harm to our community.

I think you are overly focused on taxes as the bane of all things.  In the grand scheme of running a restaurant and all the assorted costs and overhead, the taxes are a small thing.  The restaurant business is incredibly difficult to be successful anywhere.  Most new restaurants fail, even if they open in low-tax jurisdictions.

The Suite Spot has locations in Montclair and Livingston and their website promising a location coming soon in South Orange.

https://www.thesuitespot.biz/

Runner Guy --- Cryan's  is basically the equivalent of a  basement with one window by the entrance.  Plus extremely large.  But just upstairs is a very successful restaurant.  

There has been no shortage of restaurateurs who have attempted to make a go of the village tavern space but they have all had lousy service and high prices.  I don't think the extra $5,000 in taxes was the reason they went out of business.   If one of  them had tried to recreate the same formula of other successful places like Coda or even their neighbor (Toro Loco) by having decent food at reasonable prices I am sure they would be very successful.  In fact Toro Loco seems to be very crowded every day while serving average mexican fare but I will say the service is always good.  And I think they own the building.

Gaslight seems to be successful (with numerous threads on various sites including this one saying how horrible the service has been) with reasonable prices, good food and another place that owns the building and purchased the liquor license for a high price (not as high as they are today).  

Property taxes are not the main factor if a factor at all.

ml1 said:

Runner_Guy said:
Re: property taxes
I don't see South Orange's property taxes as the biggest factor that hurts restaurants in South Orange, but I think it's worth addressing as a cause of our underperforming restaurant sector.    
The failure of an individual restaurant (like the South Mountain Tavern) may be due to its own mistakes, but if you look at property taxes in South Orange and how much restaurants are paying you can see how much property taxes eat into profits and for a lot of restaurants the muni+school district+county is making more money than the restaurant owner.
South Orange's tax rate is 3.2, which is in the top fifth in New Jersey, but our property values are also very high, so the end result is that we are in the top 20 towns for average tax bill.  
South Orange avg tax rate 3.212
Maplewood 3.099
Montclair 3.011
Livingston 2.358
Westfield 2.233
Cranford 2.413
NJ's average property tax is 2.4.  The national average is about 1.0.
I can't get the property taxes for every restaurant in South Orange because most of the restaurants aren't in stand-alone buildings, but check out Bunny's and Georgio's:
The property taxes for Bunny's  (12 South Orange Ave) is $39,573, or $108 per day. 
Georgio's (52 Vose Ave) property taxes are $25,147.39 or $69 per day.
South Orange residents pay huge property tax bills themselves, which hurts restaurants in an indirect way by reducing the discretionary income of potential customers.
Since Maplewood's property taxes are almost as high as South Orange's and it has a thriving restaurant scene on Maplewood Avenue, I don't want to say that our property taxes are the only reason we have a lagging restaurant sector, but I think it is a large factor.  

I doubt it's a large factor at all.  I don't know the budget for any of those restaurants, but I'd be willing to wager that Bunny's spends a lot more that $108 per day just on cheese for their pizzas.  

 There are apartments above Bunny's that are also paying the tax bill. You can't allocate it all to the restaurant.

yahooyahoo said:

ml1 said:

Runner_Guy said:
NJ's average property tax is 2.4.  The national average is about 1.0.
I can't get the property taxes for every restaurant in South Orange because most of the restaurants aren't in stand-alone buildings, but check out Bunny's and Georgio's:
The property taxes for Bunny's  (12 South Orange Ave) is $39,573, or $108 per day. 
Georgio's (52 Vose Ave) property taxes are $25,147.39 or $69 per day.
South Orange residents pay huge property tax bills themselves, which hurts restaurants in an indirect way by reducing the discretionary income of potential customers.
Since Maplewood's property taxes are almost as high as South Orange's and it has a thriving restaurant scene on Maplewood Avenue, I don't want to say that our property taxes are the only reason we have a lagging restaurant sector, but I think it is a large factor.  

I doubt it's a large factor at all.  I don't know the budget for any of those restaurants, but I'd be willing to wager that Bunny's spends a lot more that $108 per day just on cheese for their pizzas.  

 There are apartments above Bunny's that are also paying the tax bill. You can't allocate it all to the restaurant.

 If I'm wrong I'm wrong, but I was told 1-2 years ago that the second story of Bunny's was just used as storage.  

mrincredible said:
The Suite Spot has locations in Montclair and Livingston and their website promising a location coming soon in South Orange.
https://www.thesuitespot.biz/

 I checked out the former Cryan's/future Suite Spot today.

There is a permit up from March 2018 for gut work, but there is nothing going on.  From the tiny window I could see that the interior looks gutted indeed, but it looked that way a few years ago too.  

The articles about South Orange's Suite Spot said it would open in the summer of 2018.  We all know that hasn't happened.

Runner_Guy said:

mrincredible said:
The Suite Spot has locations in Montclair and Livingston and their website promising a location coming soon in South Orange.
https://www.thesuitespot.biz/

 I checked out the former Cryan's/future Suite Spot today.
There is a permit up from March 2018 for gut work, but there is nothing going on.  From the tiny window I could see that the interior looks gutted indeed, but it looked that way a few years ago too.  
The articles about South Orange's Suite Spot said it would open in the summer of 2018.  We all know that hasn't happened.

 As far as we know...