South Mountain Tavern closed

yahooyahoo said:

oots said:

FilmCarp said:
I heard last night that the restaurant has new owners and is going to open as a new place.

 I hope so-the right management should be able to make a go of it.

Deja vu all over again.

 True. That place has had more reboots than a 20-year-old PC.

Rumor has it that the owners of Talde in Jersey City have purchased the space and are working on the liquor license transfer. Gonna keep it pub fare.

https://www.taldejerseycity.com

The Snug is a total **** show. Tweeked out bartenders and rude staff. We tried very hard to support that bar but too many bad experiences have kept us from going back. Only saving grace was the bar manager and the blond SHU cross country track star bartender. They were the only reasons why we kept going back. Everyone else was a turd.

Welcome to MOM, shelag67.

I guess as far as new ownership goes the proof will be in the pudding. If they serve pudding, that is.

I would love to see a thriving restaurant in that space.  It was empty for something like 15-20 years, and the two places it's been in the last couple of years just haven't gained the traction they needed. So whoever tries next I wish them well. Either the food needs to be better or the price needs to come down. 

shelag67 said:
Rumor has it that the owners of Talde in Jersey City have purchased the space and are working on the liquor license transfer. Gonna keep it pub fare.
https://www.taldejerseycity.com

 Whoa! If that's true, it's very exciting news. It would more than make up for Ani Ramen choosing Maplewood over SO.

One of the partners in Three Kings Restaurant Group (which owns Talde) lives in South Orange, so it would make sense. 

mrincredible said:
One of the partners in Three Kings Restaurant Group (which owns Talde) lives in South Orange, so it would make sense. 

Keeping a secret in this village is the world's worst kept secret. It's happening. Waiting for the liquor license to transfer. 

There are a few retailers downtown that really need this new infusion of energy. We have a lot of shops that are on the precipice of staying alive. Something needs to happen soon, otherwise, all of Village Center is going to shutter. 

the menu at Talde looks very interesting-would love to see it go in that directions-still qualifies as "pub fare"?

As long as New Jersey has these draconian liquor laws, there will never be a good restaurant scene here.  As well-healed as MAPSO is, there should be a lot more to offer.  

shelag67 said:

mrincredible said:
One of the partners in Three Kings Restaurant Group (which owns Talde) lives in South Orange, so it would make sense. 

Keeping a secret in this village is the world's worst kept secret. It's happening. Waiting for the liquor license to transfer. 
There are a few retailers downtown that really need this new infusion of energy. We have a lot of shops that are on the precipice of staying alive. Something needs to happen soon, otherwise, all of Village Center is going to shutter. 

 A lot of  shops that are in trouble?  based on what information?  

And seems to me that S. Orange is similar to a lot of other towns in terms of businesses, vacant spaces, etc.  

Sounds like a new username for an old poster who has been predicting a lot of businesses were going to fold for years.  

Texas said:
As long as New Jersey has these draconian liquor laws, there will never be a good restaurant scene here.  As well-healed as MAPSO is, there should be a lot more to offer.  

NJ's restrictive liquor laws haven't prevented Maplewood from having a better restaurant scene than South Orange, nor Westfield, nor Cranford, nor Union, nor Millburn, let alone Montclair, which is the local leader.  

Although Livingston's restaurants are spread out, I think it has quite a few good ones too.  

I think there is some other condition in South Orange other than the dearth of liquor licenses that holds us back.  In fact, a lot of our successful restaurants don't have liquor licenses, like the Reservor, Boccone, Lalibela and Walia, Ariyoshi, and Georgio's.

Runner_Guy said:

Texas said:
As long as New Jersey has these draconian liquor laws, there will never be a good restaurant scene here.  As well-healed as MAPSO is, there should be a lot more to offer.  

NJ's restrictive liquor laws haven't prevented Maplewood from having a better restaurant scene than South Orange, nor Westfield, nor Cranford, nor Union, nor Millburn, let alone Montclair, which is the local leader.  
Although Livingston's restaurants are spread out, I think it has quite a few good ones too.  
I think there is some other condition in South Orange other than the dearth of liquor licenses that holds us back.  In fact, a lot of our successful restaurants don't have liquor licenses, like the Reservor, Boccone, Lalibela and Walia, Ariyoshi, and Georgio's.

 Boccone is one of the best restaurants in either South Orange or Maplewood. It's packed on Saturday evenings but relatively empty during the week. If it were in Maplewood it would be packed during the week. 

cramer said:

Runner_Guy said:

Texas said:
As long as New Jersey has these draconian liquor laws, there will never be a good restaurant scene here.  As well-healed as MAPSO is, there should be a lot more to offer.  

NJ's restrictive liquor laws haven't prevented Maplewood from having a better restaurant scene than South Orange, nor Westfield, nor Cranford, nor Union, nor Millburn, let alone Montclair, which is the local leader.  
Although Livingston's restaurants are spread out, I think it has quite a few good ones too.  
I think there is some other condition in South Orange other than the dearth of liquor licenses that holds us back.  In fact, a lot of our successful restaurants don't have liquor licenses, like the Reservor, Boccone, Lalibela and Walia, Ariyoshi, and Georgio's.

 Boccone is one of the best restaurants in either South Orange or Maplewood. It's packed on Saturday evenings but relatively empty during the week. If it were in Maplewood it would be packed during the week. 

 ( :  Since we were talking about the closing of the South Mountain Tavern, the threshold I was using to call a restaurant "successful" was "in business."

I'm sure you're right that if Boccone were in Maplewood it would be even busier.  My point is really that South Orange's problem isn't NJ's restrictive liquor license law.  There are other conditions in South Orange that make it hard to sustain a restaurant.  

Runner_Guy said:

cramer said:

Runner_Guy said:

Texas said:
As long as New Jersey has these draconian liquor laws, there will never be a good restaurant scene here.  As well-healed as MAPSO is, there should be a lot more to offer.  

NJ's restrictive liquor laws haven't prevented Maplewood from having a better restaurant scene than South Orange, nor Westfield, nor Cranford, nor Union, nor Millburn, let alone Montclair, which is the local leader.  
Although Livingston's restaurants are spread out, I think it has quite a few good ones too.  
I think there is some other condition in South Orange other than the dearth of liquor licenses that holds us back.  In fact, a lot of our successful restaurants don't have liquor licenses, like the Reservor, Boccone, Lalibela and Walia, Ariyoshi, and Georgio's.

 Boccone is one of the best restaurants in either South Orange or Maplewood. It's packed on Saturday evenings but relatively empty during the week. If it were in Maplewood it would be packed during the week. 

 ( :  Since we were talking about the closing of the South Mountain Tavern, the threshold I was using to call a restaurant "successful" was "in business."
I'm sure you're right that if Boccone were in Maplewood it would be even busier.  My point is really that South Orange's problem isn't NJ's restrictive liquor license law.  There is something else wrong with the town.

I think it is the perceived lack of convenient parking coupled with lack of value for price paid.

Parking is free after 6 pm --- and I think S. Orange has more spaces than MW so not sure those are the factors.  I think part of what works so well in MW is  that several of the restaurants are close to each other. 

Note the word “perceived”

fewer people are eating out, honestly this is a difficult time for the industry

peteglider said:
fewer people are eating out, honestly this is a difficult time for the industry

 what?  The economy is humming.  If we had better/more options we'd eat out more.  Just look at the wait for Arturo's EVERY SINGLE DAY. Happy to hear that Ani Ramen is coming.

Texas said:

peteglider said:
fewer people are eating out, honestly this is a difficult time for the industry

 what?  The economy is humming.  If we had better/more options we'd eat out more.  Just look at the wait for Arturo's EVERY SINGLE DAY. Happy to hear that Ani Ramen is coming.

 Here’s the stats 

The average American’s restaurant visits reached a 28-year low this year, falling from an average of 215 a year in 2000 to 186 a year in 2018.

http://www.grubstreet.com/2018/09/americans-are-eating-out-a-lot-less.html

Don't tell Landmark.

.

what qualifies as a restaurant visit?  186 times seems high to me. 

oots said:
what qualifies as a restaurant visit?  186 times seems high to me. 

Seems high to me too.  

Maybe they’re including fast food?

That's probably it, things like fast food and  probably also your Dunkin and Starbucks visits for coffee. 

peteglider said:

Texas said:

peteglider said:
fewer people are eating out, honestly this is a difficult time for the industry

 what?  The economy is humming.  If we had better/more options we'd eat out more.  Just look at the wait for Arturo's EVERY SINGLE DAY. Happy to hear that Ani Ramen is coming.

 Here’s the stats 
The average American’s restaurant visits reached a 28-year low this year, falling from an average of 215 a year in 2000 to 186 a year in 2018.

http://www.grubstreet.com/2018/09/americans-are-eating-out-a-lot-less.html

Is there any data that suggests that the average Essex/Union/Morris County resident is eating out less often than in the past?  There are certainly wide swaths of the country where people continue to struggle financially, and that would certainly depress restaurant visits.  But I don't think that describes SOMA at all, which if anything is more upscale now than it was 20 years ago.

I don't think the troubles of Ricalton's/South Mountain Tavern can be chalked up to lack of demand in the area.  I think the main problem was the perceived price/value ratio of its food and drink.

oots said:
what qualifies as a restaurant visit?  186 times seems high to me. 

In 25+ years of working I’ve never brought lunch.  That’s 200+ meals a year right there.  That seems like a high average for the US though.

Given my unscientific study over the past three weeks eating midweek in Mwd Village, they’re all doing quite well—if not a brisk business inside with many tables filled (Cassidy, Pub, Arturo’s, Coda, Abril), others are doing solidly on carry out (seemingly all I saw).  

Re: property taxes

I don't see South Orange's property taxes as the biggest factor that hurts restaurants in South Orange, but I think it's worth addressing as a cause of our underperforming restaurant sector.    

The failure of an individual restaurant (like the South Mountain Tavern) may be due to its own mistakes, but if you look at property taxes in South Orange and how much restaurants are paying you can see how much property taxes eat into profits and for a lot of restaurants the muni+school district+county is making more money than the restaurant owner.

South Orange's tax rate is 3.2, which is in the top fifth in New Jersey, but our property values are also very high, so the end result is that we are in the top 20 towns for average tax bill.  

South Orange avg tax rate 3.212
Maplewood 3.099
Montclair 3.011
Livingston 2.358
Westfield 2.233
Cranford 2.413

NJ's average property tax is 2.4.  The national average is about 1.0.

I can't get the property taxes for every restaurant in South Orange because most of the restaurants aren't in stand-alone buildings, but check out Bunny's and Georgio's:

The property taxes for Bunny's  (12 South Orange Ave) is $39,573, or $108 per day. 

Georgio's (52 Vose Ave) property taxes are $25,147.39 or $69 per day.

South Orange residents pay huge property tax bills themselves, which hurts restaurants in an indirect way by reducing the discretionary income of potential customers.

Since Maplewood's property taxes are almost as high as South Orange's and it has a thriving restaurant scene on Maplewood Avenue, I don't want to say that our property taxes are the only reason we have a lagging restaurant sector, but I think it is a large factor.  

Runner_Guy said:
Re: property taxes
I don't see South Orange's property taxes as the biggest factor that hurts restaurants in South Orange, but I think it's worth addressing as a cause of our underperforming restaurant sector.    
The failure of an individual restaurant (like the South Mountain Tavern) may be due to its own mistakes, but if you look at property taxes in South Orange and how much restaurants are paying you can see how much property taxes eat into profits and for a lot of restaurants the muni+school district+county is making more money than the restaurant owner.
South Orange's tax rate is 3.2, which is in the top fifth in New Jersey, but our property values are also very high, so the end result is that we are in the top 20 towns for average tax bill.  
South Orange avg tax rate 3.212
Maplewood 3.099
Montclair 3.011
Livingston 2.358
Westfield 2.233
Cranford 2.413
NJ's average property tax is 2.4.  The national average is about 1.0.
I can't get the property taxes for every restaurant in South Orange because most of the restaurants aren't in stand-alone buildings, but check out Bunny's and Georgio's:
The property taxes for Bunny's  (12 South Orange Ave) is $39,573, or $108 per day. 
Georgio's (52 Vose Ave) property taxes are $25,147.39 or $69 per day.
South Orange residents pay huge property tax bills themselves, which hurts restaurants in an indirect way by reducing the discretionary income of potential customers.
Since Maplewood's property taxes are almost as high as South Orange's and it has a thriving restaurant scene on Maplewood Avenue, I don't want to say that our property taxes are the only reason we have a lagging restaurant sector, but I think it is a large factor.  

I doubt it's a large factor at all.  I don't know the budget for any of those restaurants, but I'd be willing to wager that Bunny's spends a lot more that $108 per day just on cheese for their pizzas.  

Runner_Guy - I don't think it's a large factor. Above had a PILOT.