MSO OR BROOKLYN WEST

noo2wood said:
What bothers me most about the Brooklyn West moniker is that it only refers to white, upper-middle-class Brooklyn (Brooklyn Heights, Carroll Gardens, Park Slope, Williamsburg) and not deep Brooklyn (Black, Latino, Russian, Arabic, Hasidic, etc). And when they compare it to SOMA, they're only referring to white upper-middle-class SOMA as well. So what I basically hear is white people talking to other white people about how it's good for white people. I mean I don't see them recruiting from Prospect Heights or Fort Green or Bed Stuy or Flatbush or Ocean Parkway or Brighton Beach or Bay Ridge or Sheepshead Bay or East New York or Far Rockaway).
I thought the same thing when I lived in Park Slope, and they referred to it as the Lower West Side.

As far as I can recall, this is the first time that South Orange has been referred to as Brooklyn West in print. In fact, I'm not sure who was paid to get South Orange mentioned. These articles are usually about Maplewood (although I think that the NYT article in 2000 that deborahg referred to was about South Orange and diversity.) I think that it was Relx who said in an above post that he wasn't even aware of South Orange.

As far as South Orange is concerned, I think that the word is spread through the grapevine that South Orange is home to many affluent African-Americans. Someone once posted that there is a connection between the African-American community in South Orange and the African-American community in Martha's Vineyard. I'm not sure how valid that is, although we did have African-American neighbors who used to go to Martha's Vineyard in the summer.

apple44 said:
Not sure what the issue is. Clearly people are smart enough to know that a tagline or nickname is just that, and that M/SO is different from Park Slope, Prospect Heights, Fort Greene etc. Who would walk down South Orange Av. or Maplewood village or a more residential street and think, "Wow, this is just like DeKalb Avenue! I can't see any difference! Incredible!"

I think the "Brooklyn" appeal of M/SO (and Montclair and Summit) is that they are towns that have a downtown with restaurants and shops, so even though you are living in the suburbs, you are not cut off from everything, and wholly dependent on a car to take you everywhere. The major reason I like living in SO is that I can just place my son in a stroller and walk downtown in 5-10 minutes and do most of my shopping and errands. That is the "Brooklyn" part to me. While I do drive more here than when I lived in Brooklyn, there are days when I don't have to use the car at all, or only for a short drive. There is also the appeal of the train to Manhattan being so close. (Though I still think it would be cool if South Orange Ave became Dekalb Ave.)

relx said:

apple44 said:
Not sure what the issue is. Clearly people are smart enough to know that a tagline or nickname is just that, and that M/SO is different from Park Slope, Prospect Heights, Fort Greene etc. Who would walk down South Orange Av. or Maplewood village or a more residential street and think, "Wow, this is just like DeKalb Avenue! I can't see any difference! Incredible!"

I think the "Brooklyn" appeal of M/SO (and Montclair and Summit) is that they are towns that have a downtown with restaurants and shops, so even though you are living in the suburbs, you are not cut off from everything, and wholly dependent on a car to take you everywhere. The major reason I like living in SO is that I can just place my son in a stroller and walk downtown in 5-10 minutes and do most of my shopping and errands. That is the "Brooklyn" part to me. While I do drive more here than when I lived in Brooklyn, there are days when I don't have to use the car at all, or only for a short drive. There is also the appeal of the train to Manhattan being so close. (Though I still think it would be cool if South Orange Ave became Dekalb Ave.)

This nails it. And it's these characteristics that allows us to be a one-car family.

noo2wood said:
What bothers me most about the Brooklyn West moniker is that it only refers to white, upper-middle-class Brooklyn (Brooklyn Heights, Carroll Gardens, Park Slope, Williamsburg) and not deep Brooklyn (Black, Latino, Russian, Arabic, Hasidic, etc). And when they compare it to SOMA, they're only referring to white upper-middle-class SOMA as well. So what I basically hear is white people talking to other white people about how it's good for white people. I mean I don't see them recruiting from Prospect Heights or Fort Green or Bed Stuy or Flatbush or Ocean Parkway or Brighton Beach or Bay Ridge or Sheepshead Bay or East New York or Far Rockaway).
I thought the same thing when I lived in Park Slope, and they referred to it as the Lower West Side.

noo2wood said:
What SOMA does have in common with Brooklyn is that the folks here have a cosmopolitan attitude towards the world and each other. What it doesn't have in common is that Brooklynites seek out hipness as a status symbol, whereas SOMA folks are generally pretty down to earth and couldn't give a sh*t about keeping up with the Joneses, at least roundabout where I live (near the Clinton School).

I actually know a lot of people around these parts who are very concerned about keeping up with the Joneses, more so than I encountered in Brooklyn in my 10 years of living there. Since we have moved to W.O. I encounter it much less, but in Maplewood/SOMA I felt it a lot and at times got sucked into it as well. I also find that these people are also the ones that openly brag that this is "Brooklyn West". They also only see Brooklyn as being Park Slope, Carroll Gardens, Dumbo and Brooklyn Heights. So take it all with a grain of salt - it's certain people that are driving and advertising this narrative whether it be for personal gain, validation or just a sense of still feeling connected to their Brooklyn counterparts, who knows. This part of NJ (Montclair, SOMA, WO, Etc) is not Brooklyn. Never will be, never should be - it's different and that's a really really good thing. I think the appeal of these communities is that it's close to the trains and you get more bang for your buck - it has nothing to do with it evoking some "mystery" spirit of Brooklyn. And I have to agree, that "Brooklyn" part people are trying to advertise is only about 10% of actual Brooklyn. I think my co-workers from Bed Stuy would agree if they came to visit one day. It's a board generalization for sure that is being constructed to appeal to certain demographics in each community.

There are a couple of us that work together from the west essex community and frankly are embarrassed about this whole "Brooklyn West" thing. It's silly and trite.

noo2wood said:
relx,
Clearly it's been about 10 years since I lived in Park Slope, about 20 years since I went to school in Fort Greene, and about 25 years since I lived in Flatbush. But yes, it's still white people talking to white people and ignoring everyone else.
Even many of the comments here in town about Brooklyn hipsters and bugaboo strollers and craft beers and such invading "our town" are just white people complaining about white people and ignoring everyone else.
Brooklyn as I remember it was quite diverse. I went to the Cuban/Dominican area for chicken rice and beans, the Arabic area for tasty meats, the German/Hasidic area for appliances, the black area for some very serious karaoke, the Jamaican area for... well you know. And they were all a mile or two or a subway stop or two away. We do have that to some degree here in and around SOMA, but it's more of a 20-30 minute drive away. But again, none of these folks ever talk about that.

Having raised my children in Fort Greene in the 70's, 80's, and half the 90's, I realize now that the rich social fabric that existed there (pre-gentrification) has been permanently undon. Truly hope that SOMA doesn't become a "hipsters only" territory as well. Whether u live in Brooklyn or the suburbs, you're not really "hip" when u see the world through a very narrow cultural and/or income based lens.

noo2wood said:
What SOMA does have in common with Brooklyn is that the folks here have a cosmopolitan attitude towards the world and each other. What it doesn't have in common is that Brooklynites seek out hipness as a status symbol, whereas SOMA folks are generally pretty down to earth and couldn't give a sh*t about keeping up with the Joneses, at least roundabout where I live (near the Clinton School).

Brooklyn has a density of population and businesses and parks that you can do more on foot, including socializing and running into people. South Orange and Maplewood don't have those things.

I don't know how you measure pretention in large populations. I couldn't guess where there is more pretention, New Jersey or Broooklyn.

noo2wood said:
What bothers me most about the Brooklyn West moniker is that it only refers to white, upper-middle-class Brooklyn (Brooklyn Heights, Carroll Gardens, Park Slope, Williamsburg) and not deep Brooklyn (Black, Latino, Russian, Arabic, Hasidic, etc). And when they compare it to SOMA, they're only referring to white upper-middle-class SOMA as well. So what I basically hear is white people talking to other white people about how it's good for white people. I mean I don't see them recruiting from Prospect Heights or Fort Green or Bed Stuy or Flatbush or Ocean Parkway or Brighton Beach or Bay Ridge or Sheepshead Bay or East New York or Far Rockaway).
I thought the same thing when I lived in Park Slope, and they referred to it as the Lower West Side.

Brooklyn and South Orange and Maplewood have upper middle class people who are black and other minority ethnicities, so in this case, you're selling your home town short. Though I get your point that lower income people tend not to move from Brooklyn to your towns, and the lower income folks in your towns come from places other than New York City. So the migration is of the wealthier folks. Was that your point?

As for keeping up with the Joneses, try letting your lawn grow or putting a car up on cinder blocks. You'll be contacted by the local culture police, so to speak. People most certainly are under pressure to conform. Some are conscious of it, and some are not, but it affects everyone.

This is much ado about nothing. So, folks from the city are moving to the suburbs. Big deal.

bluepool said:

noo2wood said:
What SOMA does have in common with Brooklyn is that the folks here have a cosmopolitan attitude towards the world and each other. What it doesn't have in common is that Brooklynites seek out hipness as a status symbol, whereas SOMA folks are generally pretty down to earth and couldn't give a sh*t about keeping up with the Joneses, at least roundabout where I live (near the Clinton School).

I don't know about that, I've met plenty of folks here who obviously care a great deal about keeping up with the Joneses, although they try very hard to make it seem like they don't...
I think it's the cosmopolitan attitude that is so irritating to the types that do most of the SOMa bashing on NJ.com... they don't understand it or recognize it on its merits, so they misinterpret it as smug superiority and hypocrisy...

^^^ this so true @bluepool (the part about the joneses). It's a reality

Who are these Joneses everyone speaks of??

Before there was a hip Brooklyn culture there was an Upper West Side culture. When I moved to Maplewood more than 35 years ago it was from the UWS (much less expensive in those days of course), and that’s where a number of other people came from too--I don’t think Maplewood was an Upper East Side kind of place, especially in the days before Midtown Direct. And most of Brooklyn was still pretty scary, except for the relatively stodgy neighborhoods, so when people in those days said they were from Brooklyn they meant areas like Flatbush or Sheepshead Bay.Summit was. The Brooklyn/Brooklyn West images tossed around now are essentially variations on a decades-old stereotype, and the demarcation is probably only partly accurate, along the lines of red state/blue state. Jeans to do errands or feeling as though you need to dress up a bit to visit the library. Maplewood was a Subaru kind of town, when Subarus were still a little quirky. Now Subarus are mainstream, and much of Maplewood is too even, if it doesn’t want to be perceived as overly contentional.

I agree with relx, but it doesn't explain the venom I hear from some folks regarding the Brooklyn West nickname. There are people who absolutely hate it. There was a recent FB Lounge thread on it, and one person suggested that realtors were misleading buyers by using it, implying that some people do take it literally.

relx said:

apple44 said:
Not sure what the issue is. Clearly people are smart enough to know that a tagline or nickname is just that, and that M/SO is different from Park Slope, Prospect Heights, Fort Greene etc. Who would walk down South Orange Av. or Maplewood village or a more residential street and think, "Wow, this is just like DeKalb Avenue! I can't see any difference! Incredible!"

I think the "Brooklyn" appeal of M/SO (and Montclair and Summit) is that they are towns that have a downtown with restaurants and shops, so even though you are living in the suburbs, you are not cut off from everything, and wholly dependent on a car to take you everywhere. The major reason I like living in SO is that I can just place my son in a stroller and walk downtown in 5-10 minutes and do most of my shopping and errands. That is the "Brooklyn" part to me. While I do drive more here than when I lived in Brooklyn, there are days when I don't have to use the car at all, or only for a short drive. There is also the appeal of the train to Manhattan being so close. (Though I still think it would be cool if South Orange Ave became Dekalb Ave.)

I don't understand the ire behind the term. Many Brooklyn transplants are moving in to M/SO. They have been for years. There has been press about it. We should all be thrilled to see our property values on the rise!

If you're not living your life with the expectation that someone trying to sell something may stretch the truth a little bit then you're not really setting yourself up for success.

Since real estate is 'location, location, location' expect a real estate agent to oversell the location every time.

apple44 said:
I agree with relx, but it doesn't explain the venom I hear from some folks regarding the Brooklyn West nickname. There are people who absolutely hate it. There was a recent FB Lounge thread on it, and one person suggested that realtors were misleading buyers by using it, implying that some people do take it literally.

mammabear said:
I don't understand the ire behind the term. Many Brooklyn transplants are moving in to M/SO. They have been for years. There has been press about it. We should all be thrilled to see our property values on the rise! ">

Because I'd prefer my town be defined on its own merits, not as the lite version of someplace else it barely has any resemblance to except as part of some sort of contrived marketing ploy. It's too loose of a subjective term... if I told my grandmother I lived in "Brooklyn West", she'd immediately assume we finally had a decent pork store and a roller coaster.

True, but one of the "merits" of M/SO is easy access out of M/SO to somewhere else, NYC.

ctrzaska said:

mammabear said:
I don't understand the ire behind the term. Many Brooklyn transplants are moving in to M/SO. They have been for years. There has been press about it. We should all be thrilled to see our property values on the rise! ">

Because I'd prefer my town be defined on its own merits, not as the lite version of someplace else it barely has any resemblance to except as part of some sort of contrived marketing ploy. It's too loose of a subjective term... if I told my grandmother I lived in "Brooklyn West", she'd immediately assume we finally had a decent pork store and a roller coaster.

Very funny. Couldn't get my laughing hysterically emoji to show up.

ctrzaska said:

mammabear said:
I don't understand the ire behind the term. Many Brooklyn transplants are moving in to M/SO. They have been for years. There has been press about it. We should all be thrilled to see our property values on the rise! ">

Because I'd prefer my town be defined on its own merits, not as the lite version of someplace else it barely has any resemblance to except as part of some sort of contrived marketing ploy. It's too loose of a subjective term... if I told my grandmother I lived in "Brooklyn West", she'd immediately assume we finally had a decent pork store and a roller coaster.

By George, I think you've found a solution for the old post office location! A pork store and a roller coaster!

Maui said:

ctrzaska said:

mammabear said:
I don't understand the ire behind the term. Many Brooklyn transplants are moving in to M/SO. They have been for years. There has been press about it. We should all be thrilled to see our property values on the rise! ">

Because I'd prefer my town be defined on its own merits, not as the lite version of someplace else it barely has any resemblance to except as part of some sort of contrived marketing ploy. It's too loose of a subjective term... if I told my grandmother I lived in "Brooklyn West", she'd immediately assume we finally had a decent pork store and a roller coaster.

By George, I think you've found a solution for the old post office location! A pork store and a roller coaster!

Perfection!

I don't think the term is meant to take anything "Maplewood" away from us or detract from who we are in any way. Or even be a "lite version". Sure it's marketing. It's more of a "you'll be comfortable here in M/SO. Our attitudes are similar to those in Brooklyn" or "many of us former Brooklynites are here and we're liking it".

I'm amazed at the amount of Brooklynites flocking here. Out of my last 10 mortgage clients, I bet 7 were from Brookkyn.

ctrzaska said:

mammabear said:
I don't understand the ire behind the term. Many Brooklyn transplants are moving in to M/SO. They have been for years. There has been press about it. We should all be thrilled to see our property values on the rise! " src="//static.wwstf.com/common/plugins/redactor/emoticons/1.0/images/1.gif" unselectable="on">

Because I'd prefer my town be defined on its own merits, not as the lite version of someplace else it barely has any resemblance to except as part of some sort of contrived marketing ploy. It's too loose of a subjective term... if I told my grandmother I lived in "Brooklyn West", she'd immediately assume we finally had a decent pork store and a roller coaster.

Pork store: Piast Meats on Springfield

Roller Coaster: the Midtown Direct (an emotional roller coaster, that is....)

Pork store and Rollercoaster

Didn't they play at the 2nd Maplewoodstock?

ridski said:

Pork store and Rollercoaster

Didn't they play at the 2nd Maplewoodstock?

Actually it was the 3rd annual MWStock. I threw my bra up on stage.

mammabear said:

ridski said:

Pork store and Rollercoaster

Didn't they play at the 2nd Maplewoodstock?

Actually it was the 3rd annual MWStock. I threw my bra up on stage.

and that got a standing ovation I seem to recall

If you don't understand the ire, just imagine if, say, Seth Boyden, was referred to as Tuscan East, with the intention of making folks with their heart set on Tuscan feel "comfortable" that they will be fine at Seth Boyden. It would be a bit insulting, dontchathink?

mammabear said:

I don't think the term is meant to take anything "Maplewood" away from us or detract from who we are in any way. Or even be a "lite version". Sure it's marketing. It's more of a "you'll be comfortable here in M/SO. Our attitudes are similar to those in Brooklyn" or "many of us former Brooklynites are here and we're liking it".

noo2wood said:
If you don't understand the ire, just imagine if, say, Seth Boyden, was referred to as Tuscan East, with the intention of making folks with their heart set on Tuscan feel "comfortable" that they will be fine at Seth Boyden. It would be a bit insulting, dontchathink?

mammabear said:

I don't think the term is meant to take anything "Maplewood" away from us or detract from who we are in any way. Or even be a "lite version". Sure it's marketing. It's more of a "you'll be comfortable here in M/SO. Our attitudes are similar to those in Brooklyn" or "many of us former Brooklynites are here and we're liking it".

I'm not following your reasoning :/

hankzona said:

mammabear said:

ridski said:

Pork store and Rollercoaster

Didn't they play at the 2nd Maplewoodstock?

Actually it was the 3rd annual MWStock. I threw my bra up on stage.

and that got a standing ovation I seem to recall ">

kisses Hank!

noo2wood said:
If you don't understand the ire, just imagine if, say, Seth Boyden, was referred to as Tuscan East, with the intention of making folks with their heart set on Tuscan feel "comfortable" that they will be fine at Seth Boyden. It would be a bit insulting, dontchathink?

mammabear said:

I don't think the term is meant to take anything "Maplewood" away from us or detract from who we are in any way. Or even be a "lite version". Sure it's marketing. It's more of a "you'll be comfortable here in M/SO. Our attitudes are similar to those in Brooklyn" or "many of us former Brooklynites are here and we're liking it".

Similarly, just imagine if, say, Leni Lanape, was referred to as New Jersey, with the intention of making folks from Jersey feel "comfortable". It would be a bit insulting, dontchathink?

ridski said:

Similarly, just imagine if, say, Leni Lanape, was referred to as New Jersey, with the intention of making folks from Jersey feel "comfortable". It would be a bit insulting, dontchathink?