The George Floyd effect. Monuments down. MS flag gone. Worldwide protests. Police more violent than protestors.

DaveSchmidt said:

cramer said:

He was asked whether Bob Kroll, the president of the Police Officers union, should resign. He certainly didn't give a ringing endorsement of Kroll. 

Management is not in the habit of giving ringing endorsements to union leaders in any situation.

Police unions have been a barrier to reform in general, Kroll in particular.  He represents the worst of the Minneapolis police department. 

"The video of Chauvin kneeling on Floyd’s neck for nearly nine minutes seems too clear-cut and painful to try to make excuses.

Step forward Bob Kroll, leader of the Minneapolis police union. Kroll wrote to his members this week describing Floyd as a “violent criminal” because he did prison time, in an apparent attempt to imply Chauvin’s treatment of an unarmed man being arrested on suspicion of a non-violent minor crime was legitimate. The union chief also described those protesting over Floyd’s death as terrorists, and the dismissal of Chauvin and three other officers facing charges as depriving them of their rights.

A former Minneapolis police chief, Janeé Harteau, who battled Kroll in attempting to reform a department with a long history of racial abuse, quickly hit back, saying he was unfit to be a police officer and calling on him to resign from the force."

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/jun/05/minneapolis-police-union-bob-kroll-us

cramer said:

Police unions have been a barrier to reform in general, Kroll in particular. He represents the worst of the Minneapolis police department.

My observation was simply that even if Kroll were Joe Friday, or Bryan Stevenson, I wouldn’t expect the chief of police to be a fan.

Floyd said:

Here we have some "fine" people mocking the George Floyd killing.

One of the men yelled at the marchers angrily while kneeling on the neck of another who was facedown on the ground — an apparent attempt to mock the killing of Mr. Floyd, a black man who died in Minneapolis after a white officer knelt on his neck for nearly nine minutes.

One was fired and another was suspended by his job. Maybe Bunker Boy, our Racist In Chief, can offer them new employment.

Don't even joke about that.  Trump would absolutely hire them and pay them as many taxpayer dollars as he can.  

cramer said:

Police unions have been a barrier to reform.

 True. Police unions have evolved into abominations, in my opinion, in line with teacher unions - they protect their members at the expense of the general public and students, respectively. 

Police unions’ first inclination is always to defend the cop no matter how egregious the cop behavior. “He’s a good cop” is the PBA spokesman’s stock comment in articles about the latest cop who beat a handcuffed suspect or firebombed his girlfriends house or pulled a gun in an off-duty road rage incident or whatever.

But , the left has some soul-searching to do, because the left loves unions and public unions have grown into the abomination they are largely with the blessing of democratic elected officials. Will be interesting to see how this plays out. 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2020/06/11/want-purge-bad-cops-fix-collective-bargaining/

Smedley said:

cramer said:

Police unions have been a barrier to reform.

 True. Police unions have evolved into abominations, in my opinion, in line with teacher unions - they protect their members at the expense of the general public and students, respectively. 

You gotta be kidding me. Police unions protect killers and other civil rights abusers. Not only do they protect them, they actively produce them. (google killology)

Teachers union does what?

Geez, calm down.

There’s lots of evidence that teachers unions prevent bad teachers from being fired and stand in the way of merit-based stuff that would help kids. But I didn’t say teachers unions protect killers, and me bringing up teachers unions is a tangential point. So disregard if it gets your blood boiling.

My main point is that the left loves unions and now they will have to go along with dismantling the union protections they have pushed for, to get the police reform that is needed. 

cramer said:

Police unions have been a barrier to reform in general.

 Agreed. And that's just the tip of the iceberg.

https://medium.com/@OfcrACab/confessions-of-a-former-bastard-cop-bb14d17bc759

The purpose and mission of Labor Unions is to fight for better wages, benefits and job security of workers. As a person "of the Left" I generally favor Labor over Management in a dispute. Police unions, however, have gone astray from what should be their mission. They certainly should protect Cops from unfair discipline or firings without cause, but they should not and I believe would not protect a Cop "on the take" they should not protect a Cop who is a racist or engages in wanton brutality or uses excessive or deadly force.

Opponents of Teachers Unions complain that the protect bad teachers but I never heard of a Teachers Union defending a teacher who sexually abused or physically assaulted a student.

As to "defunding" the Police the Mayor of Newark, a long-time Progressive activist said this:

 https://www.politico.com/states/new-jersey/story/2020/06/11/newark-mayor-defunding-police-a-bourgeois-liberal-solution-for-much-deeper-problem-1292674

Smedley said:

Geez, calm down.

There’s lots of evidence that teachers unions prevent bad teachers from being fired and stand in the way of merit-based stuff that would help kids. But I didn’t say teachers unions protect killers, and me bringing up teachers unions is a tangential point. So disregard if it gets your blood boiling.

My main point is that the left loves unions and now they will have to go along with dismantling the union protections they have pushed for, to get the police reform that is needed. 

You're still equating two unions that are wildly different.  Unions are supposed to protect their members - but that hardly means that the ways they do so are equivalent. 

Your other comments about teachers unions are worth a separate discussion, as they're largely b.s.

You want unions to be powerless, I guess. You've bought into the right wing "unions are evil" crap, so congrats on that.

drummerboy said:

Smedley said:

Geez, calm down.

There’s lots of evidence that teachers unions prevent bad teachers from being fired and stand in the way of merit-based stuff that would help kids. But I didn’t say teachers unions protect killers, and me bringing up teachers unions is a tangential point. So disregard if it gets your blood boiling.

My main point is that the left loves unions and now they will have to go along with dismantling the union protections they have pushed for, to get the police reform that is needed. 

You're still equating two unions that are wildly different.  Unions are supposed to protect their members - but that hardly means that the ways they do so are equivalent. 

Your other comments about teachers unions are worth a separate discussion, as they're largely b.s.

You want unions to be powerless, I guess. You've bought into the right wing "unions are evil" crap, so congrats on that.

Did mtierney hijack your account? You still didn’t at all address my point which is police unions are a monster Democrats largely created.

And, both teachers unions and police unions make it ridiculously difficult to fire bad apples in their respective professions. Do you disagree with this equating of unions? If so that is quite strange because it’s common knowledge that it’s a fact on both counts.

Forfeiture of pensions is being discussed on CNN (a penalty @flimbro had mentioned.)

https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/12/us/chauvin-minneapolis-police-pension-invs/index.html

And the almost impossible challenge of firing bad cops in NJ being discussed locally:

https://villagegreennj.com/police-and-fire/lembrich-nj-system-makes-rooting-out-bad-cops-nearly-impossible/

Lembrich said he’d been asked “whether the George Floyd situation would have been handled differently had it occurred here in New Jersey.”

“I think that the answer is, ‘Yes, and it probably would have been worse,'” said Lembrich.

“In New Jersey, I’m confident that they would still be on administrative leave today, and likely still being paid, pending months of investigations and hearings. No matter how much elected officials like us wanted to fire them, we’d be told that we could not, that the unions would fight us and the courts would reinstate them and that we would have to not only return the officer’s gun and badge, but also pay them damages and cover their legal fees.”

Lembrich added:
“The system in New Jersey makes removing bad, brutal officers nearly an insurmountable endeavor. We need to fight for reform in Trenton and push back against the police unions and their blue walls.

Yep. The public unions' rationale for having things their way is that they protect against unfair / politically motivated firings. Which is patently ridiculous. Yes unfair / politically motivated firings can happen. Happens in the private sector. That's life. But if you're good at what you do you can get a job elsewhere. The societal costs of having the ironclad union protections , both in police and teachers, greatly outweigh the benefits of protecting a relative few against unfair firings.

but Democrats have always given carte blanche to unions. Now with this police situation they may be regretting that.

Heard MN AG Keith Ellison on npr and I this take on police unions makes sense to me:

I think that when it comes to pay, pension, working conditions, that there should be strong police unions, strong unions – period. But when it comes to misconduct and discipline, when it comes to mistreatment of persons in custody, or I think that the officers should have due process in the hands of the City Council or mayor.

He also made this point, that I thought was good (quote function not working):

Heads up, Smedley: drummerboy knows all about unions. Him getting you to agree with him should be a relatively easy lift.

Smedley said:

Yep. The public unions' rationale for having things their way is that they protect against unfair / politically motivated firings. Which is patently ridiculous. Yes unfair / politically motivated firings can happen. Happens in the private sector. That's life. ...

And that's one reason private sector workers form unions. 

PVW said:

Heard MN AG Keith Ellison on npr and I this take on police unions makes sense to me:

I think that when it comes to pay, pension, working conditions, that there should be strong police unions, strong unions – period. But when it comes to misconduct and discipline, when it comes to mistreatment of persons in custody, or I think that the officers should have due process in the hands of the City Council or mayor.

He also made this point, that I thought was good (quote function not working):

"I don’t know what we do about it other than call it out and hope that the police union members select somebody who’s really looking out – yes, of course, for them, because that’s what unions do – but also for the people who they are responsible for protecting and serving. I mean, it’s like a nursing union being against the patients, right? I mean, this is a crazy situation."

I think Ellison's take makes sense, with the caveat that even when it comes to pay, police and firefighters' unions at times have an undue influence. For example, look at what happened in N.J. when Murphy refused to extend the 2% arbitration cap on police and firefighters' wage increases.  

eta - To be fair, no arbitrations have resulted in awards more than 2% since the elimination of the arbitration cap of 2%. 

I posted upthread about what is happening in South Orange with regard to the budget. In order to compensate for the revenue loss of $1.8 million because of COVID-19, South Orange made a lot of cuts in the budget including a 2% salary increase freeze on all employees, across the board. The police union and firefighters' union did not agree to the freeze. In a letter in Tapinto, the police union accused Sheena Collum of using the investigation of a SOPD officer for use of force as retaliation against the union for not agreeing the 2% wage freeze. This is not true since the investigation is being handled by the SOPD Internal Affairs Division. 

@Smedley, is your issue with teachers unions in general or with tenure?

Smedley said:

Yep. The public unions' rationale for having things their way is that they protect against unfair / politically motivated firings. Which is patently ridiculous. Yes unfair / politically motivated firings can happen. Happens in the private sector. That's life. But if you're good at what you do you can get a job elsewhere. The societal costs of having the ironclad union protections , both in police and teachers, greatly outweigh the benefits of protecting a relative few against unfair firings.

but Democrats have always given carte blanche to unions. Now with this police situation they may be regretting that.

I have edited to delete my initial response after Googling.

It's good to check history before expounding on a subject.

https://www.ncjrs.gov/App/Publications/abstract.aspx?ID=48128

nohero said:

Smedley said:

Yep. The public unions' rationale for having things their way is that they protect against unfair / politically motivated firings. Which is patently ridiculous. Yes unfair / politically motivated firings can happen. Happens in the private sector. That's life. ...

And that's one reason private sector workers form unions. 

 So what do you think should be done with police unions. Anything? Or leave as is?

I don't see how eliminating unions is a sufficient step (or even a necessary one) in reforming PDs.  Aren't unions expressing the wishes of their rank and file members.  Some of the rhetoric coming from police union presidents, and some of the tooth and nail defense of bad cops can be horrifying.  But does anyone think that isn't an expression of what the cops themselves want their union to do?

Morganna said:

@Smedley, is your issue with teachers unions in general or with tenure?

 I think in general teachers unions are a net negative force for society, In terms of protecting their members as their first, second and third priorities, and if any of that runs counter to providing kids the best education, well tough luck, because we gotta get ours. Tenure is an example of that.

Smedley said:

 So what do you think should be done with police unions. Anything? Or leave as is?

 Collective bargaining. Management has a right to make demands regarding misconduct, hiring and firing. The same is true as to any public sector or private sector Union.

What would you suggest Police Officers due to protect their wages and benefits?

Smedley said:

 I think in general teachers unions are a net negative force for society, In terms of protecting their members as their first, second and third priorities, and if any of that runs counter to providing kids the best education, well tough luck, because we gotta get ours. Tenure is an example of that.

I always find this sentiment kind of puzzling because aren't the teachers in Millburn, Mendham and Princeton just as unionized as those in the "failing" inner city districts?  Doesn't that fact alone suggest that there are other factors more likely to be causal than unions when talking about "best education"?

Smedley said:

 So what do you think should be done with police unions. Anything? Or leave as is?

 Why not discuss changes like more political action in favor of real reforms?  An example, in Maplewood - https://www.twp.maplewood.nj.us/community-board-police-0

ml1 said:

Smedley said:

 I think in general teachers unions are a net negative force for society, In terms of protecting their members as their first, second and third priorities, and if any of that runs counter to providing kids the best education, well tough luck, because we gotta get ours. Tenure is an example of that.

I always find this sentiment kind of puzzling because aren't the teachers in Millburn, Mendham and Princeton just as unionized as those in the "failing" inner city districts?  Doesn't that fact alone suggest that there are other factors more likely to be causal than unions when talking about "best education"?

Exactly. Blaming the teachers union for the failings of management and administration is lazy, IMHO. 

ml1 said:

I don't see how eliminating unions is a sufficient step (or even a necessary one) in reforming PDs.  Aren't unions expressing the wishes of their rank and file members.  Some of the rhetoric coming from police union presidents, and some of the tooth and nail defense of bad cops can be horrifying.  But does anyone think that isn't an expression of what the cops themselves want their union to do?

I don’t know if eliminating police unions is indicated, I wouldn’t go that far. But, I believe, for there to be real police reform, there needs to be a meaningful rolling back of the union’s power to protect their own. How else can bad cops be weeded out? 

DaveSchmidt said:

Heads up, Smedley: drummerboy knows all about unions. Him getting you to agree with him should be a relatively easy lift.

Smedley is not worth the bother in this. His head is way too far up there on this issue.

And you're getting a bit creepy.

ml1 said:

Smedley said:

 I think in general teachers unions are a net negative force for society, In terms of protecting their members as their first, second and third priorities, and if any of that runs counter to providing kids the best education, well tough luck, because we gotta get ours. Tenure is an example of that.

I always find this sentiment kind of puzzling because aren't the teachers in Millburn, Mendham and Princeton just as unionized as those in the "failing" inner city districts?  Doesn't that fact alone suggest that there are other factors more likely to be causal than unions when talking about "best education"?

  If unions aren’t the only reason, or even if they aren’t the #1 reason for public schools underperforming, does that mean it’s not worth looking at?

drummerboy said:

DaveSchmidt said:

Heads up, Smedley: drummerboy knows all about unions. Him getting you to agree with him should be a relatively easy lift.

Smedley is not worth the bother in this. His head is way too far up there on this issue.

And you're getting a bit creepy.

 Still waiting for someone, anyone, to say what they’d do with police unions.

I think everyone or most everyone on here favors police reform given recent events. But I seem to be the only one saying reining in the unions will be necessary for there to be true reform. I guess others think true reform will happen just on the individual cop level? Or maybe it will happen magically?

And what, exactly, are you going to "look at"?

================================================

Good piece on the myth of unions and how hard it is to fire teachers.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/answer-sheet/wp/2016/07/21/think-teachers-cant-be-fired-because-of-unions-surprising-results-from-new-study/

Pending Dave's approval of course.