The George Floyd effect. Monuments down. MS flag gone. Worldwide protests. Police more violent than protestors.
Smedley said:
STANV said:
drummerboy said:
Smedley said:
Well hopefully they learned from that debacle and AOC won’t put out a similar police defunding plan to replace guns with confetti cannons, batons with plastic lightsabers, and jail cells with psychiatrist couches.
AOC is the most exciting (and competent) Democrat to come along in years. Too bad you can't see that. She scares the crap out of the R's - that should be enough to tell you something.
Hopefully we'll see more Dems come along in the likes of AOC, and less like Pelosi.
DB, I like both AOC and Pelosi. IMHO they compliment each other. Somewhere a baby is being born who, as a Congresswoman 30 years from now, will attack AOC as too moderate.
Smedley, the opposition is always going to "spin" distort and lie. Are there Republicans who worry about Rep. Matt Gaetz calling for the "hunting down" of protesters or hope he won't call for Concentration Camps?
BTW, as to replacing "jail cells with psychiatrist Couches" I saw a clip of a Police Chief complaining about the Police being given the job of dealing with mental illness.
Would you like to see AOC barnstorm the Midwestern swing states this summer / fall with Biden and / or the VP candidate?
I think it's fair to say you portray yourself at the conservative end of Democratic voters. Would you personally not vote for Biden if AOC did some events with him?
ml1 said:
Smedley said:
STANV said:
drummerboy said:
Smedley said:
Well hopefully they learned from that debacle and AOC won’t put out a similar police defunding plan to replace guns with confetti cannons, batons with plastic lightsabers, and jail cells with psychiatrist couches.
AOC is the most exciting (and competent) Democrat to come along in years. Too bad you can't see that. She scares the crap out of the R's - that should be enough to tell you something.
Hopefully we'll see more Dems come along in the likes of AOC, and less like Pelosi.
DB, I like both AOC and Pelosi. IMHO they compliment each other. Somewhere a baby is being born who, as a Congresswoman 30 years from now, will attack AOC as too moderate.
Smedley, the opposition is always going to "spin" distort and lie. Are there Republicans who worry about Rep. Matt Gaetz calling for the "hunting down" of protesters or hope he won't call for Concentration Camps?
BTW, as to replacing "jail cells with psychiatrist Couches" I saw a clip of a Police Chief complaining about the Police being given the job of dealing with mental illness.
Would you like to see AOC barnstorm the Midwestern swing states this summer / fall with Biden and / or the VP candidate?
I think it's fair to say you portray yourself at the conservative end of Democratic voters. Would you personally not vote for Biden if AOC did some events with him?
No. But I would cringe.
I suspect the AOC effect would be more getting out the MAGA vote rather than peeling off folks in the same zip code as my political leanings. But there probably would be that too.
Yes or no - if you were a Biden campaign strategist, would you invite AOC to accompany Biden to a rally in Scranton PA?
Smedley said:
No. But I would cringe.
I suspect the AOC effect would be more getting out the MAGA vote rather than peeling off folks in the same zip code as my political leanings. But there probably would be that too.
Yes or no - if you were a Biden campaign strategist, would you invite AOC to accompany Biden to a rally in Scranton PA?
As StanV also pointed out, your stereotypes are a little off. Scranton is a solid Democratic city, and its residents tend to be labor-friendly. AOC would probably be as good a fit there as she would be in Brooklyn.
So likely yes.
Do you really think the MAGA vote needs any more motivation to vote?
Smedley said:
Yes or no - if you were a Biden campaign strategist, would you invite AOC to accompany Biden to a rally in Scranton PA?
If I were a Biden campaign strategist, I wouldn’t waste a rally in his hometown unless it were with someone like AOC.
STANV said:
Smedley said:
I see Trump has seized on the far left calls to de-fund the police. I really hope this idea quickly fades away and doesn't gain any traction. If Trump is able to tie the Democrats to this issue, hello second term.
I am re-thinking my initial reaction to the "de-fund the police" thing.
https://www.politico.com/news/2020/06/07/minneapolis-police-force-george-floyd-306704
Yup.
“Decades of police reform efforts have proved that the Minneapolis Police Department cannot be reformed and will never be accountable for its actions,” they said. “We are here today to begin the process of ending the Minneapolis Police Department and creating a new, transformative model for cultivating safety in Minneapolis.”
'Organizers with Black Visions said they too don’t have all the answers about what would replace the police department, but they said police can’t be reformed through initiatives like training and body cameras. This is the beginning of the process of putting together a “police-free future,” they vowed, by investing in more community initiatives like mental health and having community members respond to public safety issues'.
(Black Visions is the group that organized the protest outside Mayor Frey's house and where the speaker said "We don't want no more police.")
https://www.startribune.com/mpls-council-majority-backs-dismantling-police-department/571088302/
ml1 said:
Smedley said:
No. But I would cringe.
I suspect the AOC effect would be more getting out the MAGA vote rather than peeling off folks in the same zip code as my political leanings. But there probably would be that too.
Yes or no - if you were a Biden campaign strategist, would you invite AOC to accompany Biden to a rally in Scranton PA?As StanV also pointed out, your stereotypes are a little off. Scranton is a solid Democratic city, and its residents tend to be labor-friendly. AOC would probably be as good a fit there as she would be in Brooklyn.
So likely yes.
Do you really think the MAGA vote needs any more motivation to vote?
I’m sure just with any voting bloc there’s a spectrum of enthusiasm. There are MAGA people who will vote come hell or high water and there are MAGA people who on Election Day might be distracted with work, or rain, or grocery shopping obligations or whatever. So to answer your question, yes.
Ok, so AOC’s in at the Scranton rally. Is there anywhere you *wouldnt* send her with Biden? She did have a 22% national favorability rating in a poll last year, and I don’t think there’s any reason to believe that number has meaningfully improved. You portray yourself as a data-driven guy, so presumably you’d take that very low number into account and not decide based only on your personal approval of her policies.
Smedley said:
I’m sure just with any voting bloc there’s a spectrum of enthusiasm. There are MAGA people who will vote come hell of high water and there are MAGA people who on Election Day might be distracted with work, or rain, or grocery shopping obligations or whatever. So to answer your question, yes.
If they have that negative a view of AOC, then they already rely on MAGA news sources. Whether she actually shows up in their hometown with Biden or not wouldn't be a big factor.
Smedley said:
I’m sure just with any voting bloc there’s a spectrum of enthusiasm. There are MAGA people who will vote come hell or high water and there are MAGA people who on Election Day might be distracted with work, or rain, or grocery shopping obligations or whatever. So to answer your question, yes.
Ok, so AOC’s in at the Scranton rally. Is there anywhere you *wouldnt* send her with Biden? She did have a 22% national favorability rating in a poll last year, and I don’t think there’s any reason to believe that number has meaningfully improved. You portray yourself as a data-driven guy, so presumably you’d take that very low number into account and not decide based only on your personal approval of her policies.
I'd look at her favorability among likely Democratic voters. I'd have to check out the survey you're quoting, but I'd bet the majority of respondents weren't familiar enough to evaluate her.
There probably isn't any place that Biden would even be visiting where the campaign couldn't bring almost any elected Democrat. He's not likely to head to Birmingham AL or Salt Lake City. It's going to be Philly and Pittsburgh, Madison and Milwaukee, Charlotte and Chapel Hill, Miami, etc.
Fair enough, we’ll have to agree to disagree. Don’t forget that Biden, for all his faltering, won the nomination over two sharp and strident progressive candidates, both of whom were stronger campaigners and debaters than Joe - to me that’s a pretty clear indication that democratic voters in aggregate prefer moderate policies to progressive policies, at least for this election. So I’m not sure why Biden, after coming this far, would suddenly turn left ahead of the general election and welcome any and all Democrats up on the stage with him.
Smedley said:
Fair enough, we’ll have to agree to disagree. Don’t forget that Biden, for all his faltering, won the nomination over two sharp and strident progressive candidates, both of whom were stronger campaigners and debaters than Joe - to me that’s a pretty clear indication that democratic voters in aggregate prefer moderate policies to progressive policies, at least for this election. So I’m not sure why Biden, after coming this far, would suddenly turn left ahead of the general election and welcome any and all Democrats up on the stage with him.
I like how we've somehow gone from discussing racism against African Americans to making definitive statements about a hypothetical Biden campaign event in Scranton featuring Rep. Ocasio-Cortez.
Yeah this thread has gone off course, my bad as much as anyone’s, I kinda lost track of the original subject and digressed. I’ll stop here, happy to resume in a more suitable politico thread.
Florida police organization offers to hire cops who were fired or resigned over police misconduct
https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/08/us/brevard-county-florida-police-union-misconduct-trnd/index.html
It's interesting to see the powerful individuals and organizations who believe so strongly in the use of force instead of the use of de-escalation techniques, that they are willing to shout it from the treetops. From the leader of the Brevard County Fraternal Order of Police (the union):
The "The police had the legal authority in both cases," Gamin said in an email to Florida Today. "At the time the warnings were provided, the citizens were already breaking the law. Those citizens chose to disregard the warnings. It led directly to escalations and confrontations with the police. When we issue lawful commands/warnings, citizens have a responsibility to comply. The reality is failure to comply leads to escalation."
The Union can't hire people, except maybe to answer phones and type letters at HQ.
Gamin, according to his LinkedIn page, has been a lieutenant with the Brevard County Sheriff's Office for 26 years, but Brevard County Sheriff Wayne Ivey distanced his office from the union."The 'Brevard County F.O.P.' page and organization has no official affiliation with the Brevard County Sheriff's Office and was not authorized in any capacity by me or our agency to recruit or comment on our behalf!!" Sheriff Wayne Ivey said in a statement posted to the sheriff's office's Facebook page.
flimbro said:
Right? Tell me about it.
Not unless you count all that legislation prior to 1964 (or 1866 if you want to delve into that library of yours)
So, you and I aren't going to agree on everything and I think that is OK. I do want to thank you for the back and forth as I get the feeling that I've irritated you.
Just a couple of things there. First, I'd like to say that I'm horrified by recent events and some of the behaviors outlined in this thread. I am of the opinion that nobody should be treated like that ever. I hope you understand that I believe that.
The second thing I'd like to say is that while I may come at things from a different perspective, I think you and I want to get to the same place. We want people to be treated and valued as individuals without pre-judgement. I am there with you 100%.
I apologize in that I can sometimes be argumentative and sometimes these things get lost in the sauce so to speak.
Humbly yours,
Terp
STANV said:
The Union can't hire people, except maybe to answer phones and type letters at HQ.
True. While the article headline is not the most accurate, he basically said there were openings in their department, and that leadership allows more use of force.
That said, I believe the police unions often defend its officers against complaints and charges of misconduct? With this police union leader, and (IIRC from the 2019 Trump rally) the Minneapolis one, they do not simply justify individual officer's need for use-of-force as exceptional cases, but basically promote it as a "fun feature" of being a cop.
In other words, it's becoming clearer how this component of the police system further enables the use-of-force dysfunction.
I can't imagine a Union of any other occupation, from Teachers to Bricklayers to Bus Drivers inviting workers fired for misconduct to apply for jobs with their company.
I've been watching the South Orange BOT meeting via Webex and a CHS student (I think he was one of the students that organized the march on Friday) asked via email to the Village Clerk whether the BOT has had any discussions about disbanding the police department in view of what Minneapolis is doing. Sheena knows the student and said that the BOT has not had any discussions regarding disbanding the police department, but will certainly look at devoting more resources in the future to social workers within the police department.
eta - In the second round of public comments, the student via email to the Clerk responded by thanking Sheena for her comments.
I left the meeting when they started talking about the backyard chicken ordinance.
terp said:
So, you and I aren't going to agree on everything and I think that is OK.
It’s OK for you and me, because it means we whites who “want people to be treated and valued as individuals without prejudgment” (could there be any easier concession?) won’t ever have to change. We’re horrified! We’re humble! Our hearts are won!
America: Defeating racism one bad apple at a time. The rest of us can wait.
I felt that way for a long time, until eventually it got through to me that if this country is ever going to cut to the roots of racism and deal with them, there’s no dodging the argument over how deep they go, and that it was an argument I needed to lose.
This is great - a story about Nic Zapko, Gov. Tim Walz's ASL interpreter. Watch the video.
cramer said:
This is great - a story about Nic Zapko, Gov. Tim Walz's ASL interpreter. Watch the video.
don't mean to be facetious, but if Zapko is deaf, how does she know what's being said so that she can sign it?
I'm confused.
drummerboy said:
cramer said:
This is great - a story about Nic Zapko, Gov. Tim Walz's ASL interpreter. Watch the video.
don't mean to be facetious, but if Zapko is deaf, how does she know what's being said so that she can sign it?
I'm confused.
I was also wondering about that. Here you go -
"But she and her fellow interpreter JP Beldon, who are both Deaf, are proving that theory wrong daily. They interpret in tandem with hearing interpreters like McCutcheon, who sits in the front row in press conferences and signs to Zapko, who then interprets the message further into ASL to the world."
Sign interpreters usually work in pairs when it’s possible, as they usually sign in 30-mins shifts (either lip-reading/hearing to Sign or off-shift).
(Note that some Deaf may have residual hearing not great enough for speech that can be improved with cochlear implants. My friend was in this position. )
Here we have some "fine" people mocking the George Floyd killing.
One of the men yelled at the marchers angrily while kneeling on the neck of another who was facedown on the ground — an apparent attempt to mock the killing of Mr. Floyd, a black man who died in Minneapolis after a white officer knelt on his neck for nearly nine minutes.
One was fired and another was suspended by his job. Maybe Bunker Boy, our Racist In Chief, can offer them new employment.
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/09/nyregion/george-floyd-protest-franklinville-nj.html
posted this in another thread but it really belongs here:
you want an eye-opener? Check out this crybaby, snowflake article from lawofficer.com. The author describes a dystopian U.S., that is more violent than ever (factually not true by a long shot), in which cops are the victims of hatred and disdain at the hands of the public. And he's had it. He's quitting. So there. And naturally the comments are just as bad or worse. As far as I'm concerned, law enforcement officers who can't deal with valid criticisms of their tactics, and don't want reform -- go ahead and quit. Good riddance.
Anybody else watching the Minneapolis Police Chief press conference? He was asked whether Bob Kroll, the president of the Police Officers union, should resign. He certainly didn't give a ringing endorsement of Kroll.
I tuned in late to the press conference. I think the police chief is a good man. In fact, I think he is exceptional. I hope he stays on,
cramer said:
He was asked whether Bob Kroll, the president of the Police Officers union, should resign. He certainly didn't give a ringing endorsement of Kroll.
Management is not in the habit of giving ringing endorsements to union leaders in any situation.
A look at Camden’s experience, from the Philadelphia Inquirer:
But as cities such as Minneapolis and Philadelphia consider reforms in the wake of protests over the police killing of George Floyd, some Camden residents caution against using their city’s unique story as a playbook.
The Camden County police force was created with little public input, using political muscle and a process some called union-busting. And though many residents now agree the department has reduced crime and improved relationships with the community, mistrust lingers, and despite efforts to diversify, the force remains whiter than the largely nonwhite city it serves.
Camden disbanded its police department and built a new one. Can others learn from it?
cramer said:
Anybody else watching the Minneapolis Police Chief press conference? He was asked whether Bob Kroll, the president of the Police Officers union, should resign. He certainly didn't give a ringing endorsement of Kroll.
I tuned in late to the press conference. I think the police chief is a good man. In fact, I think he is exceptional. I hope he stays on,
MINNEAPOLIS — The Minneapolis Police Department will withdraw from police union contract negotiations, Chief Medaria Arradondo said Wednesday as he announced the first steps in what he said would be transformational reforms to the agency in the wake of George Floyd's death.
Arradondo said a thorough review of the contract is planned. He said the contract needs to be restructured to provide more transparency and flexibility for true reform. The review would look at matters such as critical incident protocols, use of force, and disciplinary protocols, including grievances and arbitration.
He said it’s debilitating for a chief when there are grounds to terminate an officer and a third-party mechanism works to keep that person on the street.
“This work must be transformational, but I must do it right,” Arradondo said of changes to the department.
.......
"Arradondo sidestepped a question about whether he thought union head Bob Kroll, often seen as an obstacle to reform, should step down. He also didn’t directly answer a question about whether citizens should worry about a slowdown in police response time as a pushback against attempts to transform the department. Some City Council members have said in the past that their wards saw such slowdowns when they complained about police action."
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I am re-thinking my initial reaction to the "de-fund the police" thing.
https://www.politico.com/news/2020/06/07/minneapolis-police-force-george-floyd-306704