Meet the Mets (For Mets Fans Only!)

jimmurphy said:

 I was going to bring up this article as well. I really am not sure what Sandy's role is at this point.

 Sandy was hired because Cohen's deal went through somewhat late in the off-season. So when he fired Van Wagenen he needed someone who had management experience who was immediately available. I'm not sure the plan was ever for Sandy to be there past this season. 

I'd like to see the Mets sign a couple of free agents to one or two year contracts.  Trade a few of our young guys, guys I like, for good prospects.  Use money to tide over the ML team for a year or two until the kids are ready.  The sad part is that it means DeGroms remaining years are probably going to be frustrating.

If they're that far away should they trade deGrom? He's my favorite player, but he and the prospects are the only players with any value. .230/.240 hitters with no power that can't field are a dime a dozen. They better not sign Baez. If you ever want to torture me lock me in a room with him batting in an endless loop. 

unless we think the guys on the roster are never going to hit again, why would the Mets do a tear-down next season?  The only reason they are in the mess they're in this year is a lack of runs.  The pitching has generally been very good top to bottom.  The fielding and the baserunning have been very good.  Do we think McNeil and Lindor are going to be below-average hitters from here forward?  Nimmo and Alonso have been fine.  If McNeil, Lindor and Conforto had been even close to their career averages this season, this team would be comfortably headed to the postseason, even with deGrom on the shelf.

So because of a few underperforming hitters, they blow the whole thing up and wait 3 years to be a contender?  I don't agree.

Their defense and baserunning have been pretty horrible for the past couple of weeks. What do you suggest they do? Are they going to spend $100 to $200 mil for Stroman? How much on Syndergaard? Keep Baez after trading a top prospect for him? Are they prepared to go into another season expecting McNeil will all of a sudden become a .300 hitter again? That Dom will be a .280 hitter with power? Offer Conforto a qualifying offer that he would be crazy to pass on? Maybe a new manager, GM and coaches is all they need. One can wish...  

jfinnegan said:

Their defense and baserunning have been pretty horrible for the past couple of weeks. What do you suggest they do? Are they going to spend $100 to $200 mil for Stroman? How much on Syndergaard? Keep Baez after trading a top prospect for him? Are they prepared to go into another season expecting McNeil will all of a sudden become a .300 hitter again? That Dom will be a .280 hitter with power? Offer Conforto a qualifying offer that he would be crazy to pass on? Maybe a new manager, GM and coaches is all they need. One can wish...  

 the past couple of weeks their two best middle infielders have been on the shelf, so I don't think it's indicative of anything more than that.

All of the rest are open questions for sure.  Dom Smith is not the problem on this team, so assuming a DH next year, he's the 1B.  If they think McNeil's best days are behind him, maybe they do sign Baez, who for all the angst over his Ks, is a perennial Gold Glove.  They have plenty of options for putting together a good pitching staff next season (assuming deGrom and Syndergaard end this year healthy).

But this team is so close to being a postseason contender, as a fan I'd be pretty angry if Cohen's response to this season is to ship out everyone who's got trade value and turn it into the Pirates for the next five years.

I don't want to blow up the team.  Spend the money to keep the starters, all 11 of them.  Bullpen arms come and go.  Don't re sign familia, though.  But on offense, Conforto just isn't consistent enough.  For every good season you can mention you can also mention a bad one.  Davis, Smith and McNeil, all of whom I like, I would move for prospects.  I think they have value as solid inexpensive players for a low budget team.  Lindor is here long term, and I think will be fine.  Don't re sign Baez unless he will do a two year deal, maybe three.  That leaves a lot of Major league holes to fill short term with money, while hopefully putting some better prospects in the minors.  

I agree with not blowing up the team. I do think Rojas and the coaches and front office have to go.  I wouldn't be surprised if they offer a deal to Baez, because there aren't many good free agents out there. I just can't deal with his approach at the plate. He goes up there with no game plan whatsoever. Bryant would be nice. I expect the Giants will give him a big deal. He's already a fan favorite. I doubt they'll offer a deal to Familia, but I prefer seeing him come in over May. Does Syndergaard get signed as a closer or a starter? 

I think Syndagaard gets a healthy one year deal.  How he does and when he pitches can be worked out.  And if he starts well negotiate a multi year deal during the season.  He's coming off a major injury, so he can't really set all of the contract rules.

At least Carrasco pitched better than he has.

I know they're just going to wait until the end of the season, but is there any reason to keep Rojas? 

jfinnegan said:

I know they're just going to wait until the end of the season, but is there any reason to keep Rojas? 

 he's really sucked hitting with RISP hasn't he?

I'll just go with one example from last night. I won't bring up taking out Walker the night before. So, last night, you have the bases loaded and your option is to either have JD Davis come up with the bases loaded against a righty who is struggling or bring in McNeil and have them put a lefty in. If you want to keep Rojas then maybe they should have 3 hitting coaches like the Giants have. Rojas has been giving the same answers for two years now. They're not going to change the players so obviously they have to change the coaches.

On July 1 Rojas was legitimately in the conversation for NL Manager of the Year. Now seven weeks later he should be fired? 

He really should be telling them not to hit into double plays.  That's how successful managers do it.

ml1 said:

On July 1 Rojas was legitimately in the conversation for NL Manager of the Year. Now seven weeks later he should be fired? 

 Was he? They faced bad teams up until July. Since then they haven't been able to consistently beat mediocre teams. I don't know of anybody else out there so why not give him another year? Just get a couple of hitting coaches. I figure Cohen is going to clean house and either Scott or a new GM is going to want their own manager.

jfinnegan said:

ml1 said:

On July 1 Rojas was legitimately in the conversation for NL Manager of the Year. Now seven weeks later he should be fired? 

 Was he? They faced bad teams up until July. Since then they haven't been able to consistently beat mediocre teams. I don't know of anybody else out there so why not give him another year? Just get a couple of hitting coaches. I figure Cohen is going to clean house and either Scott or a new GM is going to want their own manager.

 yes.  If you Google Rojas and manager of the year you can find some articles.  It's hard to remember now, but the team was able to stay in first place for three month despite an unreal number of injuries.  Now they have two weeks against the two best teams in the league, lose 7 of the games by one run, and the fans are calling for the manager's firing? The fans chanting last night are knuckleheads.

They can't fire all the hitters, but that's who is to blame. The players gotta play.

I agree with you, but that's the problem. They can't get rid of the players. They have had the same issue with the hitters for quite a while. I would get rid of Sandy first and then they will need new coaches. Maybe Rojas is harsher behind closed doors. I feel like he has to be a bit harder on them. They have been making a lot of fundamental mistakes lately, i.e. that throw by Pillar was 10 feet over the catcher when he had no chance at getting the runner at home. It sounds like Syndergaard will take the qualifying offer. I guess he can't really showcase himself if he's only able to throw 2 pitches. 

jfinnegan said:

I agree with you, but that's the problem. They can't get rid of the players. They have had the same issue with the hitters for quite a while. I would get rid of Sandy first and then they will need new coaches. Maybe Rojas is harsher behind closed doors. I feel like he has to be a bit harder on them. They have been making a lot of fundamental mistakes lately, i.e. that throw by Pillar was 10 feet over the catcher when he had no chance at getting the runner at home. It sounds like Syndergaard will take the qualifying offer. I guess he can't really showcase himself if he's only able to throw 2 pitches. 

 we can point to all kinds of mistakes.  But Pillar is a smart veteran guy who made a mistake last night, that didn't cost them anything in the end. Over the course of the full season, they have generally been good fundamentally.  If this team hit like they did last year, they would be cruising to a division title.  THAT is the beginning, middle and end of the Mets' story this season -- not driving in runners in scoring position.  And it's the one thing a manager can't change by being tough and hard on his players.  The last thing a hitter needs is any additional things to think about at the plate.  And the frustrating thing is that every one of us knows these guys are capable of much better.  I have no idea what's been going on with them this year, and I'm pretty sure nobody else does either.

I'm not in favor of doing things just to look like they're doing something.  I mean, they fired the hitting coach because they wanted to look like they were doing something.  And nothing changed.  Except that they're now paying Chili Davis to watch baseball on TV.

The job of a manager is really just to help people feel good at work so that they will hopefully relax and produce.  Hrs not going to teach them how to hit.  He's got to help them get along with each other.  Most of his choices are handed to him by the analytics staff.

For fellow old timers like me, here's the Koosman tribute video if u missed it yesterday. Good stuff.

Did you see this thumbs down thing the players are doing when they get on base?  It's their way of booing back at the fans.  Not brilliant.

Tonight's game should be interesting. If there was any question of whether Baez was going to be offered a contract he just answered it. Now I wonder if they'll still offer Stroman a deal. Sort of amazing that they're getting offended when they're hitting in the low .200s and getting paid millions of dollars. I actually felt that the fans were pretty patient with Lindor and I have never heard Pillar get booed.

there's no game tonight, but I'm pretty sure a day off won't change the fans' reaction. I have to believe it will be loud and negative.  It's not smart for any of the players to escalate things with the fans, but they do have a point. It's one thing to boo a lack of hustle, or a boneheaded mistake.  But booing strikeouts or hitting into double plays is pretty stupid IMHO.  It's probably mostly people who never played the game or forgot how hard it is to hit a baseball.  And putting extra pressure on guys, whether it comes from the manager, the media, or the fans won't make guys hit better.  Sure fans have the right to do anything as long as they don't throw things, or use profanity or racial slurs.  But having the right to do something, and it being smart or productive are obviously different things.

If you go back through my comments on this thread over the years, I've been pretty open about my disdain for the rather significant chunk of the Mets fan base who are knuckleheads.  The people chanting to fire Rojas, the people who booed Piazza when he first came to NY, the people who booed David Wright during slumps, the people who booed Johan Santana in his first game at Shea Stadium, these are the people who give the fan base a bad name. Baez is not some guy who's never played in front of a passionate fan base. He was a Cub on some pretty bad teams the last couple of years.  He knows what a knowledgeable and passionate fan base acts like, in both good times and bad. And he recognizes that a lot of NY fans are of the fair weather sort.

I think NY sports fans have  greater sense of entitlement than many other fans.  Other fans appreciate modest success or improvement, even short of a championship, more than NY fans.  Ironically, I think that's why NY franchises often fall short.  They feel like they have to make moves to field pretender competitors in the short term rather than just say were going to bite the bullet for a few years and slowly build a real competitor.

I don't know about booing.  Yes there is a difference between booing lazy or brainless play and booing poor performance when the guy is trying.  On the other hand, venting at your under performing team is one of the "pleasures" of being a fan and, lets face it, the lot of most fans given how many teams there are and how few excel.

The gulf between Lindor's performance and how much he is getting paid is so extreme that at some point, I can't fault the booing.  When I'm waiting in a long line to pay $30 to park and paying $10 for  a beer so that you can make X hundred million dollars, you don't get unconditional love forever.

bub said:

I think NY sports fans have  greater sense of entitlement than many other fans.  Other fans appreciate modest success or improvement, even short of a championship, more than NY fans.  Ironically, I think that's why NY franchises often fall short.  They feel like they have to make moves to field pretender competitors in the short term rather than just say were going to bite the bullet for a few years and slowly build a real competitor.

I don't know about booing.  Yes there is a difference between booing lazy or brainless play and booing poor performance when the guy is trying.  On the other hand, venting at your under performing team is one of the "pleasures" of being a fan and, lets face it, the lot of most fans given how many teams there are and how few excel.

The gulf between Lindor's performance and how much he is getting paid is so extreme that at some point, I can't fault the booing.  When I'm waiting in a long line to pay $30 to park and paying $10 for  a beer so that you can make X hundred million dollars, you don't get unconditional love forever.

 It's not that I don't understand what a lot of the fans are thinking.  It's just that to me it's counterproductive.  Nobody is saying the fans should be cheering for these guys even when they fail.  But catcalls and booing don't make anyone hit better.  And I have to admit it's got to be pretty annoying to the players when they get loudly booed after a strikeout in the first, but get a wild ovation if they hit a HR in the seventh.

there were rumors in past seasons that a lot of the Mets players had a certain level of cynicism about just that type of fickleness among the fans.  I know sports is one of the most "what-have-you-done-for-me-lately" professions, but Mets fans have a tendency to turn from hostile to celebrating their players from at bat to at bat.  And if the players turn cynical about that, who can really blame them?

Yeah the booing is not productive but this unusual thumbs down thing ain't gonna help.  It's fine for players to say booing doesn't help and it hurts.  The thumbs down thing though is, literally, giving the finger to the people who are paying your salary.

I think a lot more pro sports players are cynical or indifferent about fans then they let on.  They mouth the obligatory love for their fans and then move on in free agency or trades and immediately love their new fans.  

Ugh.

I have never booed a player other than John Rocker. That being said Lindor has been in the league for a while and I'm sure he has heard NY fans boo at players when they're not performing. If he can't handle that he should have taken $100 mil less and stayed in Cleveland or go to Tampa. To hit .220 while making $300 mil and be the primary reason for the team not making the playoffs then complain about being booed is pretty ignorant, IMO. I guess we have moved on from the ratcoon incident.

Soul_29 said:

Ugh.

Yeah, saw that. Do we know what it is?