do you have criticism for the police in this matter?
Of course I do. But I am not psychotic enough to think that store owner had it coming.
have you ever considered that maybe the cops were (at least part of) the cause of this man's injury?
If the man you are talking about is Blake, then certainly. If you are talking about the business owners in the town then, no.
why not? Are the cops so oblivious to what's happening in this country that they can't figure out that what they were about to do and did would probably trigger protests?
It looks like the peaceful protests have started there.
We have systems, institutions, and people to respond to, attempt to mitigate, and restore the damage from crowds causing property damage. I don't think you'll find any people on this board advocating for the defunding of property insurance companies or saying anyone who commits assault should not face consequences for their actions.
We do not appear to have any real recourse for agents of the state killing and severely injuring citizens. Yet, for some reason, you seem to feel that this is not the appropriate place to put our focus. Why that is, I suppose only you can answer. Maybe we should make it a math problem -- how many stores equals a human life? If no stores are damaged, can we keep the focus on a man's life? What if five are damaged? Ten? If I go on twitter can I get an answer to this simple math problem?
This is nonsense. What is interesting about chiming in on something that will be universally condemned? The police violence is wrong. The police should be held accountable for their actions. Who is arguing with this? Do I really need to provide a harumph?
What is interesting is how we get from there to random acts of wanton violence by civilians are ok. Those people should be punished. They not only burned down his store, but they beat him unconscious.
Rather than the futile attempt to quantify and compare lives to property, why not hold people accountable for their actions? Or are we really a nation of children?
do you have criticism for the police in this matter?
Of course I do. But I am not psychotic enough to think that store owner had it coming.
have you ever considered that maybe the cops were (at least part of) the cause of this man's injury?
If the man you are talking about is Blake, then certainly. If you are talking about the business owners in the town then, no.
why not? Are the cops so oblivious to what's happening in this country that they can't figure out that what they were about to do and did would probably trigger protests?
They should be held accountable for their actions, not the actions of others. What is so hard to understand about that?
do you have criticism for the police in this matter?
Of course I do. But I am not psychotic enough to think that store owner had it coming.
have you ever considered that maybe the cops were (at least part of) the cause of this man's injury?
If the man you are talking about is Blake, then certainly. If you are talking about the business owners in the town then, no.
why not? Are the cops so oblivious to what's happening in this country that they can't figure out that what they were about to do and did would probably trigger protests?
They should be held accountable for their actions, not the actions of others. What is so hard to understand about that?
really? but you're willing to smear the entire Kenosha protesters because one man was injured.
because that's what your doing.
Also, I'd love to live in your simple world where cause and effect is so clearly defined.
“Please mr policeman stop killing us” hasn’t worked. Will never work, mostly because too many well intentioned people accept it as just a random incident and do nothing.
What is the appropriate response to something like this?
What is the point? Is the point that it's ok to use the actions of others as license to harm innocent people and destroy property en masse?
how do they have license?
And really, what is your point in only talking about these incidents? How can you simply condemn them in your vacuum? Is there no room for complexity in your world?
I don't like to see this kind of violence. But that doesn't mean that I can't see where it's coming from. You don't, apparently.
The problem is not that a store gets burned down. The problem is that people are driven to do it.
“Please mr policeman stop killing us” hasn’t worked. Will never work, mostly because too many well intentioned people accept it as just a random incident and do nothing.
What is the appropriate response to something like this?
Perhaps actually protesting peacefully? It might also help to be more inclusive and focus on all police violence as you will get more people on board with making changes.
Specific to Kenosha, I think this guy has some answers.
What is the point? Is the point that it's ok to use the actions of others as license to harm innocent people and destroy property en masse?
how do they have license?
And really, what is your point in only talking about these incidents? How can you simply condemn them in your vacuum? Is there no room for complexity in your world?
I don't like to see this kind of violence. But that doesn't mean that I can't see where it's coming from. You don't, apparently.
The problem is not that a store gets burned down. The problem is that people are driven to do it.
“Please mr policeman stop killing us” hasn’t worked. Will never work, mostly because too many well intentioned people accept it as just a random incident and do nothing.
What is the appropriate response to something like this?
Perhaps actually protesting peacefully? It might also help to be more inclusive and focus on all police violence as you will get more people on board with making changes.
Specific to Kenosha, I think this guy has some answers.
Sure because peaceful protest arrested the cops who killed Breonna Taylor etal
What is the point? Is the point that it's ok to use the actions of others as license to harm innocent people and destroy property en masse?
The point is that the social contract is broken, and the lack of recourse and lack of change has been made clear over and over and over again.
Perhaps you can't see it because Libertarians are so in enamored with the concept of contracts as societal perfection. But they are not perfect... because contracts can be broken. And what happens after a contract is broken? The remedy, or lack of remedy, is determined by society's power structures.
If society's powerful ignore multiple requests for recourse, the powerless can either believe they are unworthy of a fair contract, or threaten to break down society until fairness is provided.
This rage against society provides some power and attention to the unfairness of all the contracts that have not been honored. So, it's actually a predictable and logical escalation in a battle over a remedy.
Just like Colin Kaepernick and others did? How about all of the other peaceful protests that have resulted in exactly zero change to the problem of police violence?
How much looting does it take before it proves that Mr. Blake deserved what happened to him?
Because otherwise, I have no idea what discussing the looting has to do with the issues about what actually did happen to him, and what can be done to prevent similar events.
How much looting does it take before it proves that Mr. Blake deserved what happened to him?
Because otherwise, I have no idea what discussing the looting has to do with the issues about what actually did happen to him, and what can be done to prevent similar events.
Well, the main purpose is to tie the violence directly to BLM, usually without the slightest bit of evidence, so as to discredit them.
terp posts a tweet that uses the phrase "BLM arsonists" as if that means something to the normal world.
It looks like the peaceful protests have started there.
We have systems, institutions, and people to respond to, attempt to mitigate, and restore the damage from crowds causing property damage. I don't think you'll find any people on this board advocating for the defunding of property insurance companies or saying anyone who commits assault should not face consequences for their actions.
We do not appear to have any real recourse for agents of the state killing and severely injuring citizens. Yet, for some reason, you seem to feel that this is not the appropriate place to put our focus. Why that is, I suppose only you can answer. Maybe we should make it a math problem -- how many stores equals a human life? If no stores are damaged, can we keep the focus on a man's life? What if five are damaged? Ten? If I go on twitter can I get an answer to this simple math problem?
This is nonsense. What is interesting about chiming in on something that will be universally condemned? The police violence is wrong. The police should be held accountable for their actions. Who is arguing with this? Do I really need to provide a harumph?
What is interesting is how we get from there to random acts of wanton violence by civilians are ok. Those people should be punished. They not only burned down his store, but they beat him unconscious.
Rather than the futile attempt to quantify and compare lives to property, why not hold people accountable for their actions? Or are we really a nation of children?
Your very first post on this thread was "It looks like the peaceful protests have started there." Looks like you couldn't even manage a perfunctory "harumph".
...
As I noted, in the post you are replying to, there already are mechanisms to hold anyone who committed property damage or who attacked anyone to be held accountable. This is as it should be. There are not any effective mechanisms to hold the police accountable. Given that, the lack of police accountability is by far the bigger problem and deserving of the greater attention. Solve that, and you almost certainly also greatly minimize the chances of events causing the kind of property damage you are so concerned about.
I'm still waiting to find out who "they" are that are saying that looting and arson are OK. Are there mayors, police chiefs, DAs etc. out making statements that these crimes won't be prosecuted because it's a perfectly appropriate way for protesters to respond?
It may be lost on the people who don't do nuance, and don't do shades of grey, but for most of us it's very easy to hold these two thoughts in our heads at the same time -- that looting, assault and arson are not acceptable, but we can understand the reasons for the rage in the people who respond this way. It's really not that difficult, and it doesn't take a great brain to be able to do it.
Many protesters left the area, but others lingered and walked to a gas station several blocks away. There, a group of men with guns stood outside, promising to protect the property and verbally sparring with the arriving protesters. As the night stretched on, the gas station became a tense gathering spot, with bystanders watching from parked cars and people milling around in the street, arguing and occasionally shoving each other.
Police officers had crept closer to the gas station in armored trucks, urging the people who were still there to go home.
After midnight, shots were fired outside the gas station. Three people were struck, Sheriff David Beth said in an interview. The Kenosha Police Department said in a statement that there were two fatalities, and that one person had been taken to the hospital with injuries that were not life-threatening.
Sheriff Beth said that the investigation was focused on the group of men with guns outside the gas station, and that investigators were scouring video taken just before the shooting.
For most of us it's very easy to hold these two thoughts in our heads at the same time -- that looting, assault and arson are not acceptable, but we can understand the reasons for the rage in the people who respond this way.
Do you thus believe that crimes committed under the cover of BLM protests - theft, vandalism, agg assault, whatever -- should be considered crimes of passion, and thus courts of law should rule to downgrade the degree of the crime and the associated punishment?
This is a thread about an African American being shot in the back by Police offers in front of his children in a clear attempt to murder him. Why are discussing looting here? It is disrespectful, and we are no better than people that say "All lives matter" in response to BLM.
Many protesters left the area, but others lingered and walked to a gas station several blocks away. There, a group of men with guns stood outside, promising to protect the property and verbally sparring with the arriving protesters. As the night stretched on, the gas station became a tense gathering spot, with bystanders watching from parked cars and people milling around in the street, arguing and occasionally shoving each other.
Police officers had crept closer to the gas station in armored trucks, urging the people who were still there to go home.
After midnight, shots were fired outside the gas station. Three people were struck, Sheriff David Beth said in an interview. The Kenosha Police Department said in a statement that there were two fatalities, and that one person had been taken to the hospital with injuries that were not life-threatening.
Sheriff Beth said that the investigation was focused on the group of men with guns outside the gas station, and that investigators were scouring video taken just before the shooting.
And the latest stories from Kenosha indicate that armed persons trying to protect property from protesters may have shot three people, killing two.
Many protesters left the area, but others lingered and walked to a gas station several blocks away. There, a group of men with guns stood outside, promising to protect the property and verbally sparring with the arriving protesters. As the night stretched on, the gas station became a tense gathering spot, with bystanders watching from parked cars and people milling around in the street, arguing and occasionally shoving each other.
Police officers had crept closer to the gas station in armored trucks, urging the people who were still there to go home.
After midnight, shots were fired outside the gas station. Three people were struck, Sheriff David Beth said in an interview. The Kenosha Police Department said in a statement that there were two fatalities, and that one person had been taken to the hospital with injuries that were not life-threatening.
Sheriff Beth said that the investigation was focused on the group of men with guns outside the gas station, and that investigators were scouring video taken just before the shooting.
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Many protesters left the area, but others lingered and walked to a gas station several blocks away. There, a group of men with guns stood outside, promising to protect the property and verbally sparring with the arriving protesters. As the night stretched on, the gas station became a tense gathering spot, with bystanders watching from parked cars and people milling around in the street, arguing and occasionally shoving each other.
Police officers had crept closer to the gas station in armored trucks, urging the people who were still there to go home.
After midnight, shots were fired outside the gas station. Three people were struck, Sheriff David Beth said in an interview. The Kenosha Police Department said in a statement that there were two fatalities, and that one person had been taken to the hospital with injuries that were not life-threatening.
Sheriff Beth said that the investigation was focused on the group of men with guns outside the gas station, and that investigators were scouring video taken just before the shooting.
But that violence in the service of protecting property is probably okay to "libertarians."
For most of us it's very easy to hold these two thoughts in our heads at the same time -- that looting, assault and arson are not acceptable, but we can understand the reasons for the rage in the people who respond this way.
Do you thus believe that crimes committed under the cover of BLM protests - theft, vandalism, agg assault, whatever -- should be considered crimes of passion, and thus courts of law should rule to downgrade the degree of the crime and the associated punishment?
wtf?
where did you get that conclusion from what I wrote?
why not? Are the cops so oblivious to what's happening in this country that they can't figure out that what they were about to do and did would probably trigger protests?