Employer Provided Insurance: THIRTY THREE MILLION Americans Won't Be Worrying About Losing It Anymore 
nan said:
No, let's try this AGAIN - drummerboy included in this response -- TRUMP IS RUNNING TO THE LEFT OF THE DEMS. Trump is doing an experiment with M4A--he's paying for testing and treatment for coronavirus at Medicare rates. Opening the exchanges is to the right of that.
If you've lost your insurance, opening the exchanges is not "to the right" of Trump at all.
He also campaigned on giving us a beautiful healthcare package with everyone covered 4 years ago.
DaveSchmidt said:
There’s a lot of gray area between “all I had were symptoms” and “Goddamn it, call an ambulance!”
Also, I’m guessing you’ve never belonged to an HMO. The M stands for “management,” which encourages clearances before treatment.
ETA: I misremembered. The M stands for “maintenance.” Management, and with it preapprovals, is still a key tenet of HMOs, as far as I know. It’s been a while since I was in one.
I may have belonged to an HMO briefly but I have always relied on my wife's coverage through her Union. But the discussion began with a story of a 17 year old who was tuned away from an Urgent Care Center and died of Corona Virus. He would not have been turned away from a hospital ER. Not knowing more details we do not know why he did not go to an ER or what his symptoms were.
However if someone with just regular symptoms called his HMO wouldn't they send him to one of their network doctors?
I can imagine the Right-Wing media taking a story about someone dying because of a delay in reaching his HMO and turning it around and saying
"If we had M4A imagine trying to get the Social Security Administration on the phone in an emergency".
nohero said:
If you've lost your insurance, opening the exchanges is not "to the right" of Trump at all.
If Trump announced M4A for everyone except immigrants would that be "to the left" or "to the right"?
STANV said:
I may have belonged to an HMO briefly but I have always relied on my wife's coverage through her Union. But the discussion began with a story of a 17 year old who was tuned away from an Urgent Care Center and died of Corona Virus. He would not have been turned away from a hospital ER. Not knowing more details we do not know why he did not go to an ER or what his symptoms were.
However if someone with just regular symptoms called his HMO wouldn't they send him to one of their network doctors?
STANV, all I can say is that it might help you to read the Time article or Facebook post I linked to. There you’d learn that the HMO did tell the family to get the young man to the ER, and he was on his way when he went into cardiac arrest, from which doctors could not save him once he arrived.
I don’t know what the symptoms were, but I can easily imagine there are symptoms that I, as a father, would consider serious enough to call my HMO but not serious enough to dial 911. Symptoms that could lead, tragically, to cardiac arrest on the way to the ER without a moment’s warning.
DaveSchmidt said:
STANV, all I can say is that it might help you to read the Time article or Facebook post I linked to. There you’d learn that the HMO did tell the family to get the young man to the ER, and he was on his way when he went into cardiac arrest, from which doctors could not save him once he arrived.
I don’t know what the symptoms were, but I can easily imagine there are symptoms that I, as a father, would consider serious enough to call my HMO but not serious enough to dial 911. Symptoms that could lead, tragically, to cardiac arrest on the way to the ER without a moment’s warning.
I now understand. Thank you.
PVW said:
My response stood apart from Drummerboy's so it's confusing how you're including it here. Putting that to the side, are you claiming Clinton said testing and treatment should be covered at a higher rate than Medicare? Do you have a quote for that?
No, Clinton called for a reopening of the ACA Exchanges. Trump sounds like he's calling for something closer to M4A, hence my saying that the Dems are getting outflanked by the Republicans and that's not a good sign for November elections.
nohero said:
If you've lost your insurance, opening the exchanges is not "to the right" of Trump at all.
Fair point,but if you have lost your insurance and your paycheck and you are broke, the exchanges are not going to help you and guy who covers your healthcare without cost is going to get your vote.
DaveSchmidt said:
Here’s an article from Time about that update:
You Probably Read About an Uninsured Teen Who Died of COVID-19. The Truth Is More Complicated
Lastly, the young man’s death has been removed from the coronavirus tally for now, pending further investigation. He tested positive for the virus, but that may not be what killed him.
Read it. Thanks again.
ridski said:
He also campaigned on giving us a beautiful healthcare package with everyone covered 4 years ago.
Yes, and he did squat which would give the Democrats a great opening for offering Medicare for All as a counter. Instead, the Democrats seem to want to support what they had four years ago, which is part of the reason Trump got elected in the first place.
nan said:
No, Clinton called for a reopening of the ACA Exchanges. Trump sounds like he's calling for something closer to M4A, hence my saying that the Dems are getting outflanked by the Republicans and that's not a good sign for November elections.
The fact that you are actually thinking that anything Trump says "sound like he's calling for" anything is astounding. After this long, don't you know that any of the sounds that come out of Trump's head don't mean anything? He quite literally says stuff without any regard for whether it's true or false, or contradicts what he just said, or will be contradicted by the next thing he says. His words might as well have no meaning at all for what they're worth.
nan said:
nohero said:
If you've lost your insurance, opening the exchanges is not "to the right" of Trump at all.
Fair point,but if you have lost your insurance and your paycheck and you are broke, the exchanges are not going to help you and guy who covers your healthcare without cost is going to get your vote.
Two thoughts:
1. As you know, opening the exchanges plus unemployment benefits plus additional stimulus money to individuals is the entire picture. As you also know, assistance with insurance costs based on income is also part of the ACA.
2. Trump is not "covering your healthcare" by saying that he'll provide coverage for one medical condition.
nan said:
PVW said:
My response stood apart from Drummerboy's so it's confusing how you're including it here. Putting that to the side, are you claiming Clinton said testing and treatment should be covered at a higher rate than Medicare? Do you have a quote for that?
No, Clinton called for a reopening of the ACA Exchanges. Trump sounds like he's calling for something closer to M4A, hence my saying that the Dems are getting outflanked by the Republicans and that's not a good sign for November elections.
THERE IS NO M4A TODAY.
COVID-19 is TODAY. NOW.
Whether we get M4A sometime in the future does jack squat for TODAY. Not November. Today. I know you're not a big one on details, but the difference between today and November is one of those details you really should pay attention to.
STANV said:
If Trump announced M4A for everyone except immigrants would that be "to the left" or "to the right"?
To the left since the Democrats don't want it for anyone.
ml1 said:
The fact that you are actually thinking that anything Trump says "sound like he's calling for" anything is astounding. After this long, don't you know that any of the sounds that come out of Trump's head don't mean anything? He quite literally says stuff without any regard for whether it's true or false, or contradicts what he just said, or will be contradicted by the next thing he says. His words might as well have no meaning at all for what they're worth.
I would not underestimate Trump as a person whose words don't have meaning. That's more Joe Biden, who has been selected to compete with Trump. I'd say your view must be how people who vote for Biden must think. I do think Trump spews unfiltered brain fart tweets for hours on end, but to think he has no plan or strategy is dangerous and naive.
PVW said:
THERE IS NO M4A TODAY.
COVID-19 is TODAY. NOW.
Whether we get M4A sometime in the future does jack squat for TODAY. Not November. Today. I know you're not a big one on details, but the difference between today and November is one of those details you really should pay attention to.
If Trump is doing M4A TODAY than it must be doable after all, right? You are the one missing the details. We are comparing the Democratic healthcare platform to Trumps. My point is that it should be a no-brainer for the Democrats to have a better plan, but all they seem to support is the much hated ACA.
nan said:
PVW said:
THERE IS NO M4A TODAY.
COVID-19 is TODAY. NOW.
Whether we get M4A sometime in the future does jack squat for TODAY. Not November. Today. I know you're not a big one on details, but the difference between today and November is one of those details you really should pay attention to.
If Trump is doing M4A TODAY than it must be doable after all, right? You are the one missing the details. We are comparing the Democratic healthcare platform to Trumps. My point is that it should be a no-brainer for the Democrats to have a better plan, but all they seem to support is the much hated ACA.
As we all know (especially those of us with strong opinions about the Democratic Party's policy on health care), the 2016 platform proposed expanding on the ACA, not just "supporting" it.
"Americans should be able to access public coverage through a public option, and those over 55 should be able to opt in to Medicare. Democrats will empower the states, which are the true laboratories of democracy, to use innovation waivers under the ACA to develop unique locally tailored approaches to health coverage. This will include removing barriers to states which seek to experiment with plans to ensure universal health care to every person in their state. By contrast, Donald Trump wants to repeal the ACA, leaving tens of millions of Americans without coverage."
https://democrats.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/2016_DNC_Platform.pdf
nohero said:
As we all know (especially those of us with strong opinions about the Democratic Party's policy on health care), the 2016 platform proposed expanding on the ACA, not just "supporting" it.
"Americans should be able to access public coverage through a public option, and those over 55 should be able to opt in to Medicare. Democrats will empower the states, which are the true laboratories of democracy, to use innovation waivers under the ACA to develop unique locally tailored approaches to health coverage. This will include removing barriers to states which seek to experiment with plans to ensure universal health care to every person in their state. By contrast, Donald Trump wants to repeal the ACA, leaving tens of millions of Americans without coverage."
https://democrats.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/2016_DNC_Platform.pdf
This is just so much bu*****t. The time for the public option is long gone. That is more ACCESS to healthcare, not actual healthcare. All this crap about "innovation" when the real innovation is the healthcare lobby using fancy words to keep us from getting what everyone else already has so they can keep the gravy train rolling.
The argument is over and Medicare for All has won. There is no other option and anyone who supports something else is being paid to hold that view. Even Trump is paying attention to that and if the Democrats actually cared about winning in November they would too. But they don't care about winning; they care about keeping things status quo for their friends in the healthcare industry who write them checks.
sbenois said:
Go start your own party. Or country. Just go.
I hear you loud and clear and I am doing that. I'm shopping around.
nan said:
If Trump is doing M4A TODAY than it must be doable after all, right? You are the one missing the details. We are comparing the Democratic healthcare platform to Trumps. My point is that it should be a no-brainer for the Democrats to have a better plan, but all they seem to support is the much hated ACA.
Let's just get our facts right here. Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but not to their own facts:
- More than 20 million americans have gained health insurance under the ACA. It also includes many good provisions, such as protection for people with pre-existing conditions.
- Democrats agree on the need for universal healthcare, they disagree on whether it should come from improvements to ACA, or abandoning ACA and implement something new (M4A)
- Trump's healthcare plan is: nothing. In 2016 he promised to repeal and replace ACA with "something much better". Since then he hasn't even pretended that he has a replacement plan, he has just focused on trying to destroy ACA. In fact at the last SOTU, he referred to single-payer as socialism, and "we will never let socialism destroy American healthcare!"
Trump and GOP are against any form of socialized healthcare, because they are racist and they don't feel they should pay for "those people" (code words for people of color). Democrats for the most part think healthcare is a human right, but they have different strategies on how to get there.
nan said:
If Trump is doing M4A TODAY than it must be doable after all, right? You are the one missing the details. We are comparing the Democratic healthcare platform to Trumps.
Trump is not doing M4A. And my comment was responding to your criticizing Clinton's call to open up the ACA exchanges, which is about what we should be doing now, not in the future. Details, details.
nan said:
I would not underestimate Trump as a person whose words don't have meaning. That's more Joe Biden, who has been selected to compete with Trump. I'd say your view must be how people who vote for Biden must think. I do think Trump spews unfiltered brain fart tweets for hours on end, but to think he has no plan or strategy is dangerous and naive.
what evidence do you have that Trump is following a strategy?
I'd say it's more dangerous and naive of you to be telling people that Trump is going to push for M4A, when there is zero evidence he is, or would ever do so. Especially if you are basing it on things he's said.
"anyone who supports something else is being paid to hold that view"
As a supporter of public option, or any plan (including M4A) that gets more people covered and hopefully moves toward universal coverage, I ask, Where is my check?
nan said:
ridski said:
He also campaigned on giving us a beautiful healthcare package with everyone covered 4 years ago.
Yes, and he did squat which would give the Democrats a great opening for offering Medicare for All as a counter. Instead, the Democrats seem to want to support what they had four years ago, which is part of the reason Trump got elected in the first place.
They did offer Medicare For All as a counter. Like I said, it's sitting on a desk in the Senate Finance Committee, and has been for a year. Like I said, M4A doesn't happen unless you flip the Senate. As long as McConnell sits in his chair, we will have no M4A, doesn't matter who you vote for as President.
Having said all that, my point was that Trump says tons of stuff and they never happen. Trump's outflanking the Democrats? With what, a Trump steak? Why the ever-living **** you would take Trump's word for anything is beyond me, nan.
The News Hour today included an interview with two EMTs from Rockland County. They won't be missing their cushy employer provided health insurance because they never had it in the first place. Their pay is so low that they can't afford the plans offered on the Obamacare exchanges either. This while they are seeing dozens of patients in a shift, 90% of whom have symptoms of Covid 19.
My response stood apart from Drummerboy's so it's confusing how you're including it here. Putting that to the side, are you claiming Clinton said testing and treatment should be covered at a higher rate than Medicare? Do you have a quote for that?