Emoluments, tax returns and debt
I think this election woke up the 50% or so of eligible voters who didn't vote. I'm not sure how much difference it will make in 2018 with gerrymandering however. Liberals and Democrats are so packed into the big metro areas that even a lot higher turnout might mean little in terms of the make up of Congress. The midterm election will be a good test of whether or not congressional elections have been made essentially moot by gerrymandering.
Tom_Reingold said:
krugle said:
Does anyone see a silver lining from Trump and his agenda? Think there might be one, but don't know when or how.
As I see it, people are getting more involved in advocacy and activism. I also expect that the number of people who are fed up with him will increase. These two things could combine and make something good.
Article on the issue of not paying taxes, one quote states
Is signing a pledge to not pay taxes legal? Yes, if no overt act of conspiracy is involved, and the pledge itself is hypothetical. No one knows when or if it would be carried out.
(I was thinking that calling for it might be an act of conspiracy but read on)
l.facebook.com/?u=http%3A%2F%2Ftime.com%2F4590994%2Fpopular-vote-tax-pledge%2F&e=ATPdDGpZPGkNvPI3l5VyQWaFSyQsYpJHMLqTduxDLC73VQ9lrQBgFBaMLKwn34QqYPEQAQKDn7qdZtyJBa0wMuGnvcTQCNDgm0acdZF0sFIgFLGSw2IgLUojx5a6aHXLk35h" target="_blank" rel="nofollow"> http://l.facebook.com/?u=http%3A%2F%2Ftime.com%2F4590994%2Fpopular-vote-tax-pledge%2F&e=ATPdDGpZPGkNvPI3l5VyQWaFSyQsYpJHMLqTduxDLC73VQ9lrQBgFBaMLKwn34QqYPEQAQKDn7qdZtyJBa0wMuGnvcTQCNDgm0acdZF0sFIgFLGSw2IgLUojx5a6aHXLk35h
As a liberal I have a problem with your whole premise. I believe that government can and should do things. To do that I need to pay taxes. I'm willing to do that.
FilmCarp said:
As a liberal I have a problem with your whole premise. I believe that government can and should do things. To do that I need to pay taxes. I'm willing to do that.
Not my premise. I was suggesting that on April 15th people rally to ask to see Trump's taxes. It has since been discussed by many people on social media that people may try to add to the demand to see his taxes by threatening to withhold theirs. And now the article. My original idea "you show me yours, I'll show you mine" was for people to carry copies of their taxes to make the point that we pay, how much does he pay. Very legit.
And for anyone interested there is now a march planned for Philly. Starting to see what can be organized for NJ and NYC.
Silly. There are probably 100 other pressing issues requiring a march than this. This march-a-quarter phenomenon is setting itself up for failure. You'll not see folks taking planes, trains or automobiles to D.C. like they just did. You just won't. And when those numbers decline significantly, you've just given Conway a magazine filled with live ammo. I'll post here what I posted to FB:
I'm not too interested in gotcha moments coming out of a review of his returns. The time for that was before the election. (Though I suppose I could make some argument for seeing 2016). If his tax advisers have half a brain, they've liberally taken advantage of the plethora of RE deductions available to him as well as offshore tax havens for his foreign holdings. This shouldn't be a shock. And it's legal. Now, understand if they reveal an issue vs disclosures made to the FEC, but I'd expect that this would come out separately and not as a result of any release. (Hell, they've had the first since 2015 and nary a word.). If the IRS finds something, then there you have it. That this is the #1 petition out there is somewhat frightening.
[ I'll add to this, they may likely also reveal dealings with foreign entities. This should also not be a shock. I don't much care what dealings he had with Saudi Arabia or Russia in 2013. I would, however, care very much if he had any in 2017. ]
spoken like a banker
yes, it's unimportant for the public to know how much Trump owes to international interests.
nothing to see here....
ctrzaska said:
Silly. There are probably 100 other pressing issues requiring a march than this. This march-a-quarter phenomenon is setting itself up for failure. You'll not see folks taking planes, trains or automobiles to D.C. like they just did. You just won't. And when those numbers decline significantly, you've just given Conway a magazine filled with live ammo. I'll post here what I posted to FB:
I'm not too interested in gotcha moments coming out of a review of his returns. The time for that was before the election. (Though I suppose I could make some argument for seeing 2016). If his tax advisers have half a brain, they've liberally taken advantage of the plethora of RE deductions available to him as well as offshore tax havens for his foreign holdings. This shouldn't be a shock. And it's legal. Now, understand if they reveal an issue vs disclosures made to the FEC, but I'd expect that this would come out separately and not as a result of any release. (Hell, they've had the first since 2015 and nary a word.). If the IRS finds something, then there you have it. That this is the #1 petition out there is somewhat frightening.
[ I'll add to this, they may likely also reveal dealings with foreign entities. This should also not be a shock. I don't much care what dealings he had with Saudi Arabia or Russia in 2013. I would, however, care very much if he had any in 2017. ]
So people want to take action as long as there is no personal risk.
Well, what if everyone who owes taxes sends in the payment but refuses to file returns. You do your returns, send what you owe but don't file. If Millions of people did that, what result?
I think the tax protest is a fine idea and of little risk.
If it's organized correctly, the ball will be placed in Trump's court. Either he's going to announce that the IRS will be sic'ed on the protesters (that will probably not go over well) or he'll be forced to respond in some way regarding his returns.
I say do it and force Trump into a response.
drummerboy said:
spoken like a banker
yes, it's unimportant for the public to know how much Trump owes to international interests.
nothing to see here....
ctrzaska said:
Silly. There are probably 100 other pressing issues requiring a march than this. This march-a-quarter phenomenon is setting itself up for failure. You'll not see folks taking planes, trains or automobiles to D.C. like they just did. You just won't. And when those numbers decline significantly, you've just given Conway a magazine filled with live ammo. I'll post here what I posted to FB:
I'm not too interested in gotcha moments coming out of a review of his returns. The time for that was before the election. (Though I suppose I could make some argument for seeing 2016). If his tax advisers have half a brain, they've liberally taken advantage of the plethora of RE deductions available to him as well as offshore tax havens for his foreign holdings. This shouldn't be a shock. And it's legal. Now, understand if they reveal an issue vs disclosures made to the FEC, but I'd expect that this would come out separately and not as a result of any release. (Hell, they've had the first since 2015 and nary a word.). If the IRS finds something, then there you have it. That this is the #1 petition out there is somewhat frightening.
[ I'll add to this, they may likely also reveal dealings with foreign entities. This should also not be a shock. I don't much care what dealings he had with Saudi Arabia or Russia in 2013. I would, however, care very much if he had any in 2017. ]
I fully expect his companies have quite a few obligations outside the US beyond those many already known. Anyone waiting for that news as a bombshell must have been living in a van down by the river. As to his personal returns, I tend to doubt they would reveal any personal cash influx outside of the corporate filings.
If we are so beholden to the idea that he must divest himself from his corporate interests (as we should be), then what exactly does knowing this tell you? Gives you an unproven "why" to add to the list of reasons when he makes a future foreign policy decision you disagree with?
ctrzaska said:
I fully expect his companies have quite a few obligations outside the US beyond those many already known. Anyone waiting for that news as a bombshell must have been living in a van down by the river. As to his personal returns, I tend to doubt they would reveal any personal cash influx outside of the corporate filings.
Why is he so reluctant to release them?
LOST said:
ctrzaska said:
I fully expect his companies have quite a few obligations outside the US beyond those many already known. Anyone waiting for that news as a bombshell must have been living in a van down by the river. As to his personal returns, I tend to doubt they would reveal any personal cash influx outside of the corporate filings.
Why is he so reluctant to release them?
Because he'll be embarrassed by the fact the he hardly donates a dime?
I think it's important to know who he's in debt to - not sure if we know all of this - we know some.
I'm not sure if you're kidding or not.
Your position is absurd.
ctrzaska said:
drummerboy said:
spoken like a banker
yes, it's unimportant for the public to know how much Trump owes to international interests.
nothing to see here....
ctrzaska said:
Silly. There are probably 100 other pressing issues requiring a march than this. This march-a-quarter phenomenon is setting itself up for failure. You'll not see folks taking planes, trains or automobiles to D.C. like they just did. You just won't. And when those numbers decline significantly, you've just given Conway a magazine filled with live ammo. I'll post here what I posted to FB:
I'm not too interested in gotcha moments coming out of a review of his returns. The time for that was before the election. (Though I suppose I could make some argument for seeing 2016). If his tax advisers have half a brain, they've liberally taken advantage of the plethora of RE deductions available to him as well as offshore tax havens for his foreign holdings. This shouldn't be a shock. And it's legal. Now, understand if they reveal an issue vs disclosures made to the FEC, but I'd expect that this would come out separately and not as a result of any release. (Hell, they've had the first since 2015 and nary a word.). If the IRS finds something, then there you have it. That this is the #1 petition out there is somewhat frightening.
[ I'll add to this, they may likely also reveal dealings with foreign entities. This should also not be a shock. I don't much care what dealings he had with Saudi Arabia or Russia in 2013. I would, however, care very much if he had any in 2017. ]
I fully expect his companies have quite a few obligations outside the US beyond those many already known. Anyone waiting for that news as a bombshell must have been living in a van down by the river. As to his personal returns, I tend to doubt they would reveal any personal cash influx outside of the corporate filings.
If we are so beholden to the idea that he must divest himself from his corporate interests (as we should be), then what exactly does knowing this tell you? Gives you an unproven "why" to add to the list of reasons when he makes a future foreign policy decision you disagree with?
LOST said:
ctrzaska said:
I fully expect his companies have quite a few obligations outside the US beyond those many already known. Anyone waiting for that news as a bombshell must have been living in a van down by the river. As to his personal returns, I tend to doubt they would reveal any personal cash influx outside of the corporate filings.
Why is he so reluctant to release them?
Ego.
drummerboy said:
I'm not sure if you're kidding or not.
Your position is absurd.
ctrzaska said:
drummerboy said:
spoken like a banker
yes, it's unimportant for the public to know how much Trump owes to international interests.
nothing to see here....
ctrzaska said:
Silly. There are probably 100 other pressing issues requiring a march than this. This march-a-quarter phenomenon is setting itself up for failure. You'll not see folks taking planes, trains or automobiles to D.C. like they just did. You just won't. And when those numbers decline significantly, you've just given Conway a magazine filled with live ammo. I'll post here what I posted to FB:
I'm not too interested in gotcha moments coming out of a review of his returns. The time for that was before the election. (Though I suppose I could make some argument for seeing 2016). If his tax advisers have half a brain, they've liberally taken advantage of the plethora of RE deductions available to him as well as offshore tax havens for his foreign holdings. This shouldn't be a shock. And it's legal. Now, understand if they reveal an issue vs disclosures made to the FEC, but I'd expect that this would come out separately and not as a result of any release. (Hell, they've had the first since 2015 and nary a word.). If the IRS finds something, then there you have it. That this is the #1 petition out there is somewhat frightening.
[ I'll add to this, they may likely also reveal dealings with foreign entities. This should also not be a shock. I don't much care what dealings he had with Saudi Arabia or Russia in 2013. I would, however, care very much if he had any in 2017. ]
I fully expect his companies have quite a few obligations outside the US beyond those many already known. Anyone waiting for that news as a bombshell must have been living in a van down by the river. As to his personal returns, I tend to doubt they would reveal any personal cash influx outside of the corporate filings.
If we are so beholden to the idea that he must divest himself from his corporate interests (as we should be), then what exactly does knowing this tell you? Gives you an unproven "why" to add to the list of reasons when he makes a future foreign policy decision you disagree with?
Half serious. Tell me three things you'll do with information that reveals foreign dealings that the IRS will not. Then tell me how any of those three things will amount to anything more than a hill of beans besides someone's campaign fodder or something for Buzzfeed's crack team to chew on if he divests himself of any corporate role.
I think it's because the fact that he's "really rich" was the sole reason for a lot of people to take him seriously as a candidate, and his returns will show that he isn't "really rich." There's a likelihood that he personally owns nothing, and his holdings are under water. The whole thing is a house of cards, and he doesn't want the little people to find out.
jamie said:
LOST said:
ctrzaska said:
I fully expect his companies have quite a few obligations outside the US beyond those many already known. Anyone waiting for that news as a bombshell must have been living in a van down by the river. As to his personal returns, I tend to doubt they would reveal any personal cash influx outside of the corporate filings.
Why is he so reluctant to release them?
Because he'll be embarrassed by the fact the he hardly donates a dime?
I think it's important to know who he's in debt to - not sure if we know all of this - we know some.
have to agree with ctrzaska's point of view on this one. tax protests to protest Trump is counterproductive at best. what needs to be done is to protest the things that really matter, hence the womens march. the fact that civil rights are up for grabs with his whole Nixon Law and Order regression is more than enough to focus upon. Losing sight of the important in order to find out the president is a con artist tax cheater isnt important because we already know it.
well "we" might know it, but "they" don't.
I think it's important to deligitimize Trump in any way possible - getting his tax returns would go very far to that end.
hoops said:
have to agree with ctrzaska's point of view on this one. tax protests to protest Trump is counterproductive at best. what needs to be done is to protest the things that really matter, hence the womens march. the fact that civil rights are up for grabs with his whole Nixon Law and Order regression is more than enough to focus upon. Losing sight of the important in order to find out the president is a con artist tax cheater isnt important because we already know it.
ctrzaska said:
Half serious. Tell me three things you'll do with information that reveals foreign dealings that the IRS will not. Then tell me how any of those three things will amount to anything more than a hill of beans besides someone's campaign fodder or something for Buzzfeed's crack team to chew on if he divests himself of any corporate role.
Don't have a position on the proposed march, but I do feel strongly that Trump needs to release his returns, for a few reasons.
First, it's a basic political norm that our presidential candidates, and our presidents, release their returns. Norms are important to a working democracy. This isn't to say that all norms are worth following simply for the sake of norms, but it is to say we shouldn't allow them to be so lightly tossed aside.
Second, this norm is I think a good one, as financial ties do, in fact, influence people. Research shows that even small gifts influence behavior -- I've seen the research cited in multiple places, but here's an example of it being reported in the WSJ.
I'm not talking about legality or illegality here -- I'm not a lawyer -- but I am talking about our right to know what our president's interests are. This is true in a general sense -- everyone is subject to influence, and we have a right to know what our leaders' potential influencers are.
With Trump, it's even more pressing, since he has repeatedly, both in his campaign and over the course of his adult life - shown that he always places his own interests before anyone else's, whether that be his workers, business partners, or (gulp) those he represents in office. Were his campaign slogan honest, it would have been "make Donald Trump great again," and had he delivered an honest inauguration speech, the theme would have been "only Donald Trump first."
Given that, it's pretty important for us to know what Trump's interests are. People say he's unpredictable, but he's not. His motives are pretty transparent and straightforward. Knowing his vested financial interests would provide clarity and stability to Americans and the world in what otherwise seems like erratic behavior. It'd be nice to know what his financial stakes in Taiwanese real estate are, for example, in trying to judge what he means by renouncing the "one China" policy."
And yes, I admit I'm also very curious what his Russian ties are. He speaks with such disdain and contempt of so many countries and groups, that his praise for Russia and Putin is noteworthy, and perplexing. If Russia was just a small country with little influence, that might be a curiosity, but given it's importance in Europe and the middle east, some answers as to what drives his out-of-character praise for another country is an important question, and one his tax records may very well help shed some light on.
PVW said:
And yes, I admit I'm also very curious what his Russian ties are. He speaks with such disdain and contempt of so many countries and groups, that his praise for Russia and Putin is noteworthy, and perplexing. If Russia was just a small country with little influence, that might be a curiosity, but given it's importance in Europe and the middle east, some answers as to what drives his out-of-character praise for another country is an important question, and one his tax records may very well help shed some light on.
+1 on all of your who post.
And especially the part I quoted. It bears repeating.
Three things claimed by or on behalf of Donald Trump, just in the few days he's been President:
1. The crowds for the Inauguration were the biggest ever. Don't believe anything like crowd pictures or transportation counts.
2. He would have won the popular vote, but there were over three million illegal votes against him. Don't believe anything like the fact that no evidence has been found, even though that claim was first made months ago.
3. His tax returns wouldn't show anything suspicious. Trust him.
LOST said:
So people want to take action as long as there is no personal risk.
Well, what if everyone who owes taxes sends in the payment but refuses to file returns. You do your returns, send what you owe but don't file. If Millions of people did that, what result?
I think people are willing to take some personal risk. Some are suggesting filing extensions, some are saying its OK to use it as a threat. Many people would do it if they were secure that it was going to be something that millions participated in. Many of the people that marched were new to the whole concept of protesting. Would they feel comfortable moving into the realm of any form of civil disobedience? We will soon find out.
But what I do see, because of social media, is that ideas are flying fast and people want to send a message. Some really good media coverage has begun on the effectiveness of protests. Everyone is quick to point out that it could go the way of Occupy Wall Street. I don't think so. This is a man who is moving forward quickly on quite a few fronts. And as has been pointed out, he has an ego and a series of protests demonstrates in lack of popularity. It is also about the "alternative facts." Conway stating that most people are not interested in his taxes made people angry.
I know many people feel there are far more important issues, but some consideration needs to be given to timing. You need to give people a chance to regroup, but not enough time to get bored. You often link protests with something symbolic. Tax day is symbolic and marks the end of his first 100 days and gives time for planning. The behind the scenes organization of scheduling charter busses and getting places to stay and forming groups to travel with for the last march was enormous. I don't expect this to be that big, but taxes are an issue that the masses can relate to.
Its important to note that the more active people are doing daily phone calls and scheduling meetings with congressman. One group is choosing Tuesdays for visits to local reps. It limits the volunteer pool but people who want to do something right away have that option.
Today Trump is signing an executive order to kick start the Dakota Pipeline. Too me it stirs my passions more than tax returns but would a protest around that move forward as quickly? Would it move as many people as this last march did? Could it be combined in a giant protest around the environment, climate change, fracking? Maybe, And if I were organizing, I would organize around Earth Day.
Why should Trump release his tax returns? I'll defer to the expert:
"People have got to know whether or not their President is a crook," Nixon told reporters in November 1973.
jamie said:
LOST said:
Why is he so reluctant to release them?
Because he'll be embarrassed by the fact the he hardly donates a dime?
"Embarrassed"? You do realize who you are talking about.
drummerboy said:
I think it's important to deligitimize Trump in any way possible - getting his tax returns would go very far to that end.
+++
Morganna said:
LOST said:
So people want to take action as long as there is no personal risk.
Well, what if everyone who owes taxes sends in the payment but refuses to file returns. You do your returns, send what you owe but don't file. If Millions of people did that, what result?
I think people are willing to take some personal risk. Some are suggesting filing extensions, some are saying its OK to use it as a threat. Many people would do it if they were secure that it was going to be something that millions participated in. Many of the people that marched were new to the whole concept of protesting. Would they feel comfortable moving into the realm of any form of civil disobedience? We will soon find out.
I think that there is a way that individuals can pledge to take a certain action contingent on a certain number making the same pledge. In other words, "I pledge to not file my tax returns unless Trump releases his and contingent upon one million people making the same pledge".
I am not good with social media besides MOL but I'm sure there is a way to do this, like create a Facebook page.
I've never disagreed with you more strongly than now, @ctrzaska. It certainly is relevant. Republicans used to claim that personal life and morality therein are character issues and relevant to how one governs. Now we know Trump is a lying, cheating sexist with a loud and rude mouth and a loud and rude demeanor. Honesty in business is something we should know. Chances are, if his financial records are released, we will see illegal stuff, immoral stuff or both. My guess it will be both. Morality matters, because the president sets the tone for how everything is done. I think that quote from the Billy Bush video reveals a lot about Trump, and it's something that Trump supporters do not defend. Yet they tolerate it. I'd like to know why. I'd like to know what the new social limits are in our current society. Someone in my office voted for Trump. I refuse to think anything less of her, because that won't work well between us, so I choose to respect her. But it raises questions. Is it OK for me to use the word "p-u-s-s-y" in the vernacular? Hey, the president does (or did). I suspect it would upset her, so I won't try it. In that case, isn't it fair to say he's a scumbag and probably cheats on taxes as well as his suppliers and vendors? Isn't it fair to agree that that stuff isn't cool. It just isn't cool. I think these are legitimate topics for discussion, and if we are to be fair to Trump, shouldn't we have as many facts as we can obtain?
Protests have effects, especially if they are frequent. That you should argue the opposite mystifies me. History has shown this to be true. That's how we got many rights we take for granted such as a safe workplace, a 40 hour work week (ha), and so many other things. Where do you get the idea that frequent protests have no effect?
Also, the law is not at all the final arbiter of what is ethical. I mean, you agree with that, right?
Tom_Reingold said:
Also, the law is not at all the final arbiter of what is ethical. I mean, you agree with that, right?
Of course. But I doubt there remains any question about his ethics or moral character at this point, yes? Those that would overlook it still will, and those that cannot surely don't need another reason to feel the way they do, yes?
And I never said protests have no effect. I meant the effect of diluted protests on the topic of the month might without consistency. Eventually folks tune things out, and little ultimately moves along except for the major issues that have teeth or are of universal import. Civil rights? Major issue. Women's rights? Yes. Gay marriage? Sure. Trump's taxes? Notsomuch. Comparatively speaking, one can only wage war on so many fronts before supply lines get harder and harder to maintain (damn there's a quote in there on the tip of my tongue...argh). Best to focus efforts on the bigger issues, that's all I'm saying.
Morganna said:
LOST said:
So people want to take action as long as there is no personal risk.
Well, what if everyone who owes taxes sends in the payment but refuses to file returns. You do your returns, send what you owe but don't file. If Millions of people did that, what result?
I think people are willing to take some personal risk. Some are suggesting filing extensions, some are saying its OK to use it as a threat. Many people would do it if they were secure that it was going to be something that millions participated in. Many of the people that marched were new to the whole concept of protesting. Would they feel comfortable moving into the realm of any form of civil disobedience? We will soon find out.
But what I do see, because of social media, is that ideas are flying fast and people want to send a message. Some really good media coverage has begun on the effectiveness of protests. Everyone is quick to point out that it could go the way of Occupy Wall Street. I don't think so. This is a man who is moving forward quickly on quite a few fronts. And as has been pointed out, he has an ego and a series of protests demonstrates in lack of popularity. It is also about the "alternative facts." Conway stating that most people are not interested in his taxes made people angry.
I know many people feel there are far more important issues, but some consideration needs to be given to timing. You need to give people a chance to regroup, but not enough time to get bored. You often link protests with something symbolic. Tax day is symbolic and marks the end of his first 100 days and gives time for planning. The behind the scenes organization of scheduling charter busses and getting places to stay and forming groups to travel with for the last march was enormous. I don't expect this to be that big, but taxes are an issue that the masses can relate to.
Its important to note that the more active people are doing daily phone calls and scheduling meetings with congressman. One group is choosing Tuesdays for visits to local reps. It limits the volunteer pool but people who want to do something right away have that option.
Today Trump is signing an executive order to kick start the Dakota Pipeline. Too me it stirs my passions more than tax returns but would a protest around that move forward as quickly? Would it move as many people as this last march did? Could it be combined in a giant protest around the environment, climate change, fracking? Maybe, And if I were organizing, I would organize around Earth Day.
There's a big difference between buying a bus ticket to exercise your constitutional right and taking action by not filing (extensions are laughably meaningless) and violating federal law. There's no chance in hell that when faced with the inevitable return threat of being pursued by the IRS, and dealing with liens and brutal long-lasting CRA impact, that hundreds of thousands of folks will be thrilled to just jump in.
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Of course, but I would imagine that getting on FB and asking people to stop paying taxes might be a bit more serious than just not personally sending them in. My statement was :
but I imagine anyone calling for such an action would be treated to quite the interrogation by our friends at the IRS.
That said, it looks like a protest is in the making.