Airline passenger CHOKES another for reclining her seat. Discuss....

dave said:
There has to be some incentive to upgrade, right?

I alwYs upgrade when available. My knees are worth the added rate.

I'm down with zoinks on this one. Seats should not recline in economy.

ml1 brings up a good point about EWR and the way hub carriers can dominate a market resulting in high fares and crappy service out of a given airport. The $500 economy fare differential led me to LGA instead of EWR Friday evening. Ugh. I'm not sure if the situation merits intervention on Uncle Sam's part regarding unfair trade practices, but if it does I'd be happy to testify.

hoops said:
Why is it unreasonable to expect that when you pay a fare - even an economy fare, that you get a seat where you aren't treated as cargo, to be stacked and squished as closely together as space allows?
If I don't like it I can pay more? Thats ridiculous.

You could always take the train or Greyhound if the cost and/or conditions aren't preferable. Many have to. Your seat comfort isn't a right, like everything else that's voluntary in this world.

ctrzaska said:

hoops said:
Why is it unreasonable to expect that when you pay a fare - even an economy fare, that you get a seat where you aren't treated as cargo, to be stacked and squished as closely together as space allows?
If I don't like it I can pay more? Thats ridiculous.

Your seat comfort isn't a right, like everything else that's voluntary in this world.

Well, duh. No one said it was a right. However, the fact that we're pretty trapped with this *****ty service is reason enough to complain. Train or bus is not a realistic option for most travel outside the NE.

mjh said:

ctrzaska said:

hoops said:
Why is it unreasonable to expect that when you pay a fare - even an economy fare, that you get a seat where you aren't treated as cargo, to be stacked and squished as closely together as space allows?
If I don't like it I can pay more? Thats ridiculous.

Your seat comfort isn't a right, like everything else that's voluntary in this world.

Well, duh. No one said it was a right. However, the fact that we're pretty trapped with this *****ty service is reason enough to complain. Train or bus is not a realistic option for most travel outside the NE.

That's how I read hoops earlier post about regulating the amount of legroom on an airplane (I can't believe I just typed that).

ctrzaska said:

hoops said:
Why is it unreasonable to expect that when you pay a fare - even an economy fare, that you get a seat where you aren't treated as cargo, to be stacked and squished as closely together as space allows?
If I don't like it I can pay more? Thats ridiculous.

You could always take the train or Greyhound if the cost and/or conditions aren't preferable. Many have to. Your seat comfort isn't a right, like everything else that's voluntary in this world.

sure, but your point of view is saying that economy passengers should expect to travel in discomfort. I don't accept that. An airline may to nickel and dime passengers with fees and add-on's and as the merchant they can do what they please, but that doesn't mean passengers should just accept it as their poor lot in life to not want to spend an extra 50 bucks per seat - or whatever the charge is, just because the airline wants to squeeze - no pun intended - every last dollar out of us.

I don't think we should just accept that quietly and worse expect that as the natural course of doing business. What about good service and what about treating people with care and respect? Wasn't that once upon a time a part of being successful in a service industry?

Its all good to say shell out a little more for a comfy seat, and don't worry those other passengers back there can fight each other over the arm rests, but I'm not buying it as good business practice.

hoops said:

An airline may to nickel and dime passengers with fees and add-on's and as the merchant they can do what they please, but that doesn't mean passengers should just accept it as their poor lot in life to not want to spend an extra 50 bucks per seat - or whatever the charge is, just because the airline wants to squeeze - no pun intended - every last dollar out of us.

...

I don't think we should just accept that quietly and worse expect that as the natural course of doing business. What about good service and what about treating people with care and respect? Wasn't that once upon a time a part of being successful in a service industry?

Are we talking care and respect or legroom? Flight attendants have become awful - just terrible. This includes business class, there is no relief. I limit my interactions with them whenever possible. Legroom though. If you fly a lot, you get premium economy upgrades for free most of the time.

Flight attendants are paid very little these days.

I'm not saying no one should complain-- by all means please do-- but I sure wouldn't be expecting a change unless the airlines think they can make money off of it (like by being the first to expand legroom and hoping to draw additional full fares not just upgrade charges). Yes, sadly, it sounds like you do just have to accept it unless you want to vote with your feet, both figuratively and literally unless somehow there's a way to legislate legroom (which would be a hoot). And it sure sounds like a good business practice from their standpoint else they wouldn't be doing it. I either fly business or pay for upgrades in economy, but if it's last-minute and I can't, I'm old enough to sit still and do a crossword for a couple of hours without having to strangle someone. Literally.

Personally I think it's fine if they add 5 inch spikes to the chairs in Economy. If you want to not sit with a spike in your ass, bleeding all over the seat, just pay the extra $50 for the Premium 2 inch spike seat.

ridski said:
Personally I think it's fine if they add 5 inch spikes to the chairs in Economy. If you want to not sit with a spike in your ass, bleeding all over the seat, just pay the extra $50 for the Premium 2 inch spike seat.

Still better than Delta.

RobB said: If you fly a lot, you get premium economy upgrades for free most of the time.

Exactly. You don't even have to fly that much on United to get free Economy plus seats. Their lowest level "elite" passengers get free E+ at check-in. All higher "elites" get free E+ when purchasing flights.

Airlines don't make much -- if any -- profit off folks filling their standard economy seats. The vast majority of leisure travelers are drawn to low prices, period. And the airlines are giving them what they want: cheap seats. Honestly, not sure what people expect for a $500 RT EWR-LAX fare that COSTS the average airline $90 to fly you on that route.

If you want a bit more room for your occasional flights, purchase E+ for a few bucks more.

To me it's not whether you want more or care if you get less. Like I said earlier, they're not going out of their way to make it known just how uncomfortable your 7-hour trans-Atlantic flight is going to be. That's 7 hours after sitting on the taxiway for however long.

The airlines are intentionally putting people into a risky situation where some kind of violent altercation becomes a 100% probability. And what happens to your odds of survival in case of an emergency landing, if you can't get out of your seat in the first place?

Just like there are capacity rules for restaurants and meeting rooms, not to mention laws against inciting riots, for public safety's sake there should be a regulated minimum amount of space that passengers get.

No matter how much extra you're willing to pay for a more humane seating arrangement, as long as there are people flattened into economy seats on the same plane as yours, causing them to start choking each other, your plane is going back to the airport from whence it came, and your trip is just as ruined as everyone else's.

tom said:
To me it's not whether you want more or care if you get less. Like I said earlier, they're not going out of their way to make it known just how uncomfortable your 7-hour trans-Atlantic flight is going to be. That's 7 hours after sitting on the taxiway for however long.
The airlines are intentionally putting people into a risky situation where some kind of violent altercation becomes a 100% probability. And what happens to your odds of survival in case of an emergency landing, if you can't get out of your seat in the first place?

Just like there are capacity rules for restaurants and meeting rooms, not to mention laws against inciting riots, for public safety's sake there should be a regulated minimum amount of space that passengers get.

I fly transatlantic regularly -- in the back -- and most folks look reasonably comfortable.

I've also never had a violent altercation on any flight, so not sure how you're getting to a "100% probability."

There are capacity rules for airliners currently in place that allow for safe escape in the case of emergencies.

jasper said:
No matter how much extra you're willing to pay for a more humane seating arrangement, as long as there are people flattened into economy seats on the same plane as yours, causing them to start choking each other, your plane is going back to the airport from whence it came, and your trip is just as ruined as everyone else's.

I'm hoping we can all agree that choking a fellow passenger is not a normal reaction, right?

tom said:
To me it's not whether you want more or care if you get less. Like I said earlier, they're not going out of their way to make it known just how uncomfortable your 7-hour trans-Atlantic flight is going to be. That's 7 hours after sitting on the taxiway for however long.
The airlines are intentionally putting people into a risky situation where some kind of violent altercation becomes a 100% probability. And what happens to your odds of survival in case of an emergency landing, if you can't get out of your seat in the first place?

Just like there are capacity rules for restaurants and meeting rooms, not to mention laws against inciting riots, for public safety's sake there should be a regulated minimum amount of space that passengers get.

You're being more than a little dramatic.

Seat specifications are available.

The chance of a violent altercation is (probably) more like .1% (I've never seen one).

Your odds of surviving the crash of a transatlantic flight remain near zero whether you're in business class or duct taped to the drink cart.

RobB said:...duct taped to the drink cart.

Sh*t, you saw me on my last flight?

It would be ridiculous to say that the chances of an altercation on every single flight is 100%. Going back to my earlier point that the more people you put into a more stressful situation, the few hundred people on one flight on one airplane is not the statistical sample; it's all the flyers on all the planes.

edited to add:

So if the probability is 0.1%, and there are 87,000 flights a day -- what do you think will happen?

And I intentionally didn't say "crash," I said "emergency landing." FAA documents show that there's an emergency landing, on average, every day at one or the other of the New York airports.

We fly both business and first class. Trust me, there are shenanigans going on up there as well. I can't count how many drunks I've witnessed in first class. Nothing worse than a drunk in a Brooks Brothers suit unbuckling his pants so he can be more comfortable.

RobB said:

tom said:
To me it's not whether you want more or care if you get less. Like I said earlier, they're not going out of their way to make it known just how uncomfortable your 7-hour trans-Atlantic flight is going to be. That's 7 hours after sitting on the taxiway for however long.
The airlines are intentionally putting people into a risky situation where some kind of violent altercation becomes a 100% probability. And what happens to your odds of survival in case of an emergency landing, if you can't get out of your seat in the first place?

Just like there are capacity rules for restaurants and meeting rooms, not to mention laws against inciting riots, for public safety's sake there should be a regulated minimum amount of space that passengers get.

You're being more than a little dramatic.
Seat specifications are available.
The chance of a violent altercation is (probably) more like .1% (I've never seen one).
Your odds of surviving the crash of a transatlantic flight remain near zero whether you're in business class or duct taped to the drink cart.

You're having a really good thread here.

tom said:
It would be ridiculous to say that the chances of an altercation on every single flight is 100%. Going back to my earlier point that the more people you put into a more stressful situation, the few hundred people on one flight on one airplane is not the statistical sample; it's all the flyers on all the planes.
edited to add:

So if the probability is 0.1%, and there are 87,000 flights a day -- what do you think will happen?
And I intentionally didn't say "crash," I said "emergency landing." FAA documents show that there's an emergency landing, on average, every day at one or the other of the New York airports.

Most emergency landing are the equivalent of pulling into a gas station because your check engine light went on. Certainly not a dangerous situation.

mbaldwin said:

jasper said:
No matter how much extra you're willing to pay for a more humane seating arrangement, as long as there are people flattened into economy seats on the same plane as yours, causing them to start choking each other, your plane is going back to the airport from whence it came, and your trip is just as ruined as everyone else's.

I'm hoping we can all agree that choking a fellow passenger is not a normal reaction, right?

I'm hoping we can all agree that not all passengers are normal, and when stressed beyond a certain point, even normal people can fly into a rage. Or a panic, which can ultimately cause the same issue of needing to bring the plane down.

From a danger standpoint we all stand a much higher chance of death or injury from road rage than from air rage.

tom said:
It would be ridiculous to say that the chances of an altercation on every single flight is 100%. Going back to my earlier point that the more people you put into a more stressful situation, the few hundred people on one flight on one airplane is not the statistical sample; it's all the flyers on all the planes.
edited to add:

So if the probability is 0.1%, and there are 87,000 flights a day -- what do you think will happen?
And I intentionally didn't say "crash," I said "emergency landing." FAA documents show that there's an emergency landing, on average, every day at one or the other of the New York airports.

The chance of a violent altercation in this diner in Mahwah is 100%. I'm not sure what that proves other than some humans being quick to violence.

An emergency landing every day? Wow. Shocking.

Curious though - what's the survival rate in coach vs business on those emergency landings?

bramzzoinks said:
From a danger standpoint we all stand a much higher chance of death or injury from road rage than from air rage.

Well, obviously, because when someone in the plane next to you flips you the bird, you can't get out, fly over to his plane and smack him in the face.

kibbegirl said:
We fly both business and first class. Trust me, there are shenanigans going on up there as well. I can't count how many drunks I've witnessed in first class. Nothing worse than a drunk in a Brooks Brothers suit unbuckling his pants so he can be more comfortable.

There is much worse.

Like a 400 lb man wedged into any suit, treating the business class meal and drink service meal like he is on death row, only to end up wearing half of the meal (including ice cream) on his shirt, then drifting into a neck-weight enhanced snoring fest, with periodic gas, only to later wake up and wonder why everyone else looks lo tired and miserable.

jasper said:

mbaldwin said:

jasper said:
No matter how much extra you're willing to pay for a more humane seating arrangement, as long as there are people flattened into economy seats on the same plane as yours, causing them to start choking each other, your plane is going back to the airport from whence it came, and your trip is just as ruined as everyone else's.

I'm hoping we can all agree that choking a fellow passenger is not a normal reaction, right?

I'm hoping we can all agree that not all passengers are normal, and when stressed beyond a certain point, even normal people can fly into a rage. Or a panic, which can ultimately cause the same issue of needing to bring the plane down.

The vast majority of these incidents seem to be linked to alcohol / substance abuse, IIRC

mbaldwin said:

jasper said:

mbaldwin said:

jasper said:
No matter how much extra you're willing to pay for a more humane seating arrangement, as long as there are people flattened into economy seats on the same plane as yours, causing them to start choking each other, your plane is going back to the airport from whence it came, and your trip is just as ruined as everyone else's.

I'm hoping we can all agree that choking a fellow passenger is not a normal reaction, right?

I'm hoping we can all agree that not all passengers are normal, and when stressed beyond a certain point, even normal people can fly into a rage. Or a panic, which can ultimately cause the same issue of needing to bring the plane down.

The vast majority of these incidents seem to be linked to alcohol / substance abuse, IIRC

Which is sadly necessary to endure these heinous flights

ridski said:

mbaldwin said:

jasper said:

mbaldwin said:

jasper said:
No matter how much extra you're willing to pay for a more humane seating arrangement, as long as there are people flattened into economy seats on the same plane as yours, causing them to start choking each other, your plane is going back to the airport from whence it came, and your trip is just as ruined as everyone else's.

I'm hoping we can all agree that choking a fellow passenger is not a normal reaction, right?

I'm hoping we can all agree that not all passengers are normal, and when stressed beyond a certain point, even normal people can fly into a rage. Or a panic, which can ultimately cause the same issue of needing to bring the plane down.

The vast majority of these incidents seem to be linked to alcohol / substance abuse, IIRC

Which is sadly necessary to endure these heinous flights

It's not.