Who Meddled more Putin or Trump? The Collusion Thread visits Venezuela

https://www.truthdig.com/author/scott_ritter/

Indictment of 12 Russians: Under the Shiny Wrapping, a Political Act

By Scott Ritter

Part 3 of 3

Despite Rosenstein’s assertions to the contrary, the decision to release the indictment of the 12 named Russian military intelligence officers was an act of partisan warfare designed to tip the scale of public opinion against the supporters of President Trump, and in favor of those who oppose him politically, Democrat and Republican alike. Based upon the media coverage since Rosenstein’s press conference, it appears that in this he has been wildly successful.

But is the indictment factually correct? The biggest clue that Mueller and Rosenstein have crafted a criminal espionage narrative from whole cloth comes from none other than the very intelligence agency whose work would preclude Rosenstein’s indictment from ever going to trial: the National Security Agency. In June 2017 the online investigative journal The Intercept referenced a highly classified document from the NSA titled “Spear-Phishing Campaign TTPs Used Against U.S. And Foreign Government Political Entities.” It’s a highly technical document, derived from collection sources and methods the NSA has classified at the Top Secret/SI (i.e., Special Intelligence) level. This document was meant for internal consumption, not public release. As such, the drafters could be honest about what they knew and what they didn’t know—unlike those in the Mueller investigation who drafted the aforementioned indictment.

A cursory comparison of the leaked NSA document and the indictment presented by Rosenstein suggests that the events described in Count 11 of the indictment pertaining to an effort to penetrate state and county election offices responsible for administering the 2016 U.S. presidential election are precisely the events captured in the NSA document. While the indictment links the identity of a named Russian intelligence officer, Anatoliy Sergeyevich Kovalev, to specific actions detailed therein, the NSA document is much more circumspect. In a diagram supporting the text report, the NSA document specifically states that the organizational ties between the unnamed operators involved in the actions described and an organizational entity, Unit 74455, affiliated with Russian military intelligence is a product of the judgment of an analyst and not fact.

If we take this piece of information to its logical conclusion, then the Mueller indictment has taken detailed data related to hacking operations directed against various American political entities and shoehorned it into what amounts to little more than the organizational chart of a military intelligence unit assessed—but not known—to have overseen the operations described. This is a far cry from the kind of incontrovertible proof that Mueller’s team suggests exists to support its indictment of the 12 named Russian intelligence officers.

If this is indeed the case, then the indictment, as presented, is a politically motivated fraud. Mueller doesn’t know the identities of those involved in the hacking operations he describes—because the intelligence analysts who put the case together don’t know those names. If this case were to go to trial, the indictment would be dismissed in the preliminary hearing phase for insufficient evidence, even if the government were willing to lay out the totality of its case—which, because of classification reasons, it would never do.

But the purpose of the indictment wasn’t to bring to justice the perpetrators of a crime against the American people; it was to manipulate public opinion.

And therein lies the rub.

The timing of the release of the Mueller indictment unleashed a storm of political backlash directed at President Trump, and specifically at his scheduled July 16 summit with Russian President Vladimir Putin in Helsinki. This summit was never popular with the president’s political opponents, given the current state of affairs between Russia and the U.S., dominated as they are by events in Syria and Ukraine, perceived Russian threats against the northern flank of NATO, allegations of election meddling in the U.S. and Europe, and Russia’s nuclear arsenal. On that last point, critics claim Russia’s arsenal is irresponsibly expanding, operated in violation of existing arms control agreements, and is being used to underpin foreign policy objectives through the use of nuclear blackmail.

President Trump has publicly stated that it is his fervent desire that relations with Russia can be improved and that he views the Helsinki summit as an appropriate venue for initiating a process that could facilitate such an outcome. It is the president’s sole prerogative to formulate and implement foreign and national security policy on behalf of the American people. While his political critics are free to criticize this policy, they cannot undermine it without running afoul of sedition laws.

Rosenstein, by the timing and content of the indictment he publicly released Friday, committed an act that undermined the president of the United States’ ability to conduct critical affairs of state—in this case, a summit with a foreign leader the outcome of which could impact global nuclear nonproliferation policy. The hue and cry among the president’s political foes for him to cancel the summit with Putin—or, failing that, to use the summit to confront the Russian leader with the indictment—is a direct result of Rosenstein’s decision to release the Mueller indictment when he did and how he did. Through its content, the indictment was designed to shape public opinion against Russia.

This indictment, by any other name, is a political act, and should be treated as such by the American people and the media [ End article ]

 


https://www.cnn.com/2017/09/19/politics/read-michael-cohen-statement/index.html

Updated 10:01 AM ET, Tue September 19, 2017
Statement of Michael D. Cohen, Esq. to the U.S. Senate Select Committee on Intelligence on September 19, 2017
[ . . . ]
I have never engaged with, been paid by, paid for, or conversed with any member of the Russian Federation or anyone else to hack anyone or any organization.
I have never engaged with, been paid by, paid for, or conversed with any member of the Russian Federation or anyone else to hack or interfere with the election.
I have never engaged with, been paid by, paid for, or conversed with any member of the Russian Federation or anyone else to hack Democratic Party computers; and I have never engaged with, been paid by, paid for, or conversed with any member of the Russian Federation or anyone else to create fake news stories to assist the Trump campaign or to damage the Clinton campaign.
Given my own proximity to the President of the United States as a candidate, let me also say that I never saw anything - not a hint of anything - that demonstrated his involvement in Russian interference in our election or any form of Russian collusion. I emphatically state that I had nothing to do with any Russian involvement in our electoral process. In fact, I find the activities attributed to the Russian Federation, if found to be true, to be an offense to our democracy.
[ . . . ]
What I seek is the Committee making a public conclusion about the truth or falsity of the allegations that follow. My reputation was damaged in December 2016 when BuzzFeed published an unverified dossier prepared by a retired British spy - Christopher Steele - that was riddled with total falsehoods and intentionally salacious accusations. In my opinion, the hired spy didn't find anything factual, so he threw together a shoddily written and totally fabricated report filled with lies and rumors.
The New York Post recently noted that much of the information in the dossier appeared at points to be copied from the internet; with typographical errors included. My name is mentioned more than a dozen times in the lie-filled-dossier and so within moments of BuzzFeed's publication, false allegations about me were plastered all over the national and international press. The accusations are entirely and totally false.
A core accusation was that I had traveled to Prague to meet with Russians regarding interfering with the election. I have never in my life been to Prague or to anywhere in the Czech Republic. I might also add that I only have one passport (a United States Passport). I have to say that to you today - that I only have one passport - because another media outlet suggested that - as a Jew - I must also have an Israeli passport! Aside from such an allegation being incredibly offensive, it is also totally wrong.
Let me tell you where I was on the day the dossier said I was in Prague. I was in Los Angeles with my son who dreams of playing division 1 baseball next year at a prestigious university like USC. We were visiting the campus, meeting with various coaches, and discussing his future.
[ . . . ]

https://apnews.com/3b598bd2e9ea4007a12243279170a5e8

Manafort trial will have nothing to do with collusion, prosecution will not mention "Russia."


paulsurovell said:
https://apnews.com/3b598bd2e9ea4007a12243279170a5e8
Manafort trial will have nothing to do with collusion, prosecution will not mention "Russia."

 That's not "new" news, as you well know.

We talked about it here two weeks ago.  As I said then: "The evidence at trial has to be relevant to the case.  The case is about whatever is in the indictment.  The indictment was for money laundering and tax evasion.  Just because irrelevant facts aren't going to be presented, doesn't mean they don't exist.  It would be stupid to claim that there's no collusion based on that statement."

https://maplewood.worldwebs.com/forums/discussion/who-colluded-more-hillary-or-trump?page=next&limit=2730#discussion-replies-3412163


nohero said:


paulsurovell said:
https://apnews.com/3b598bd2e9ea4007a12243279170a5e8
Manafort trial will have nothing to do with collusion, prosecution will not mention "Russia."
 That's not "new" news, as you well know.
We talked about it here two weeks ago.  As I said then: "The evidence at trial has to be relevant to the case.  The case is about whatever is in the indictment.  The indictment was for money laundering and tax evasion.  Just because irrelevant facts aren't going to be presented, doesn't mean they don't exist.  It would be stupid to claim that there's no collusion based on that statement."
https://maplewood.worldwebs.com/forums/discussion/who-colluded-more-hillary-or-trump?page=next&limit=2730#discussion-replies-3412163

Good thing the AP doesn't ask you whether stories are newsworthy.

Mueller's biggest trial so far -- and it has nothing to do with Russia. 


Interesting (and likely true) speculation about Manafort's work in the Ukraine.

https://twitter.com/ChristopherJM/status/1025022136392540165


FBI continued to use Steele as a source, via Bruce Ohr, number 4 in DOJ, after it said Steele had been dropped.

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/12-times-christopher-steele-fed-trump-russia-allegations-to-fbi-after-the-election?platform=hootsuite


New evidence raises questions about whether Malta prof Joseph Mifsud, who allegedly started the Russia investigation via his comments to George Papadopoulos, was actually working for the FBI or State Dept

http://thefederalist.com/2018/08/02/inspect-fisa-applications-closely-mysteries-arise-joseph-mifsud/


Still not too much about Hillary really in all of this.


jamie said:
Still not too much about Hillary really in all of this.

 Every reference to the Steele dossier is a reference to Hillary for America and the DNC, funders of the dossier.


The Department of Justice appears to have been involved in the creation of the Steele dossier, which would be a real attack on our democracy.

This story, which exposes a nefarious project of the political establishment, is being censored by the corporate media, which is the mouthpiece of the political establishment.

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/emails-show-2016-links-among-steele-ohr-simpson-with-russian-oligarch-in-background?platform=hootsuite


paulsurovell said:
The Department of Justice appears to have been involved in the creation of the Steele dossier, which would be a real attack on our democracy.
This story, which exposes a nefarious project of the political establishment, is being censored by the corporate media, which is the mouthpiece of the political establishment.

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/emails-show-2016-links-among-steele-ohr-simpson-with-russian-oligarch-in-background?platform=hootsuite

 Which part "exposes a nefarious project of the political establishment"?  The story talks about Steele lobbying Ohr about some Russian tycoon.  All these guys were working with Russian tycoons.


South_Mountaineer said:


paulsurovell said:
The Department of Justice appears to have been involved in the creation of the Steele dossier, which would be a real attack on our democracy.
This story, which exposes a nefarious project of the political establishment, is being censored by the corporate media, which is the mouthpiece of the political establishment.

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/emails-show-2016-links-among-steele-ohr-simpson-with-russian-oligarch-in-background?platform=hootsuite
 Which part "exposes a nefarious project of the political establishment"?  The story talks about Steele lobbying Ohr about some Russian tycoon.  All these guys were working with Russian tycoons.

The article reveals that the nefarious Steele disinformation dossier involved collusion not only with Fusion GPS employee Nellie Ohr, but her husband Bruce Ohr, who ranked number four in the DOJ.

Ohr will testify in Congress in two weeks

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/no-time-limits-no-public-circus-bruce-ohr-to-testify-behind-closed-doors-trey-gowdy-says

No coverage by the NY Times, WaPo, CNN, MSNBC. Why not?


paulsurovell said:


South_Mountaineer said:

paulsurovell said:
The Department of Justice appears to have been involved in the creation of the Steele dossier, which would be a real attack on our democracy.
This story, which exposes a nefarious project of the political establishment, is being censored by the corporate media, which is the mouthpiece of the political establishment.

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/emails-show-2016-links-among-steele-ohr-simpson-with-russian-oligarch-in-background?platform=hootsuite
 Which part "exposes a nefarious project of the political establishment"?  The story talks about Steele lobbying Ohr about some Russian tycoon.  All these guys were working with Russian tycoons.
The article reveals that the nefarious Steele disinformation dossier involved collusion not only with Fusion GPS employee Nellie Ohr, but her husband Bruce Ohr, who ranked number four in the DOJ.
Ohr will testify in Congress in two weeks
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/no-time-limits-no-public-circus-bruce-ohr-to-testify-behind-closed-doors-trey-gowdy-says

No coverage by the NY Times, WaPo, CNN, MSNBC. Why not?

 You say, "The article reveals", but that was what I asked. So, again, "Which part?"


South_Mountaineer said:


paulsurovell said:

South_Mountaineer said:

paulsurovell said:
The Department of Justice appears to have been involved in the creation of the Steele dossier, which would be a real attack on our democracy.
This story, which exposes a nefarious project of the political establishment, is being censored by the corporate media, which is the mouthpiece of the political establishment.

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/emails-show-2016-links-among-steele-ohr-simpson-with-russian-oligarch-in-background?platform=hootsuite
 Which part "exposes a nefarious project of the political establishment"?  The story talks about Steele lobbying Ohr about some Russian tycoon.  All these guys were working with Russian tycoons.
The article reveals that the nefarious Steele disinformation dossier involved collusion not only with Fusion GPS employee Nellie Ohr, but her husband Bruce Ohr, who ranked number four in the DOJ.
Ohr will testify in Congress in two weeks
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/no-time-limits-no-public-circus-bruce-ohr-to-testify-behind-closed-doors-trey-gowdy-says

No coverage by the NY Times, WaPo, CNN, MSNBC. Why not?
 You say, "The article reveals", but that was what I asked. So, again, "Which part?"

Here are numerous parts. Here are two:


Emails in 2016 between former British spy Christopher Steele and Justice Department official Bruce Ohr suggest Steele was deeply concerned about the legal status of a Putin-linked Russian oligarch, and at times seemed to be advocating on the oligarch's behalf, in the same time period Steele worked on collecting the Russia-related allegations against Donald Trump that came to be known as the Trump dossier. The emails show Steele and Ohr were in frequent contact, that they intermingled talk about Steele's research and the oligarch's affairs, and that Glenn Simpson, head of the dirt-digging group Fusion GPS that hired Steele to compile the dossier, was also part of the ongoing conversation.

and 

Then, on July 1, came the first apparent reference to Donald Trump, then preparing to accept the Republican nomination for president. "I am seeing [redacted] in London next week to discuss ongoing business," Steele wrote to Ohr, "but there is something separate I wanted to discuss with you informally and separately. It concerns our favourite business tycoon!" Steele said he had planned to come to the U.S. soon, but now it looked like it would not be until August. He needed to talk in the next few days, he said, and suggested getting together by Skype before he left on holiday. Ohr suggested talking on July 7. Steele agreed.
Ohr's phone log for July 7 notes, "Call with Chris Steele" from 8:00 a.m. to 8:30 a.m. eastern time.
(A caution here: It is possible the "favourite business tycoon" could be Deripaska, or perhaps even someone else, and not Trump. But no one referred to Deripaska in that way anywhere else in the communications. Also, Steele made it clear the "tycoon" subject was separate from other business. And July 1 was just before Steele met with the FBI with the first installment of the Trump dossier. So it appears reasonable, given Steele's well-known obsession with Trump, and unless information emerges otherwise, to see the "favourite business tycoon" as Trump.)


paulsurovell said:


South_Mountaineer said:

paulsurovell said:

South_Mountaineer said:

paulsurovell said:
The Department of Justice appears to have been involved in the creation of the Steele dossier, which would be a real attack on our democracy.
This story, which exposes a nefarious project of the political establishment, is being censored by the corporate media, which is the mouthpiece of the political establishment.

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/emails-show-2016-links-among-steele-ohr-simpson-with-russian-oligarch-in-background?platform=hootsuite
 Which part "exposes a nefarious project of the political establishment"?  The story talks about Steele lobbying Ohr about some Russian tycoon.  All these guys were working with Russian tycoons.
The article reveals that the nefarious Steele disinformation dossier involved collusion not only with Fusion GPS employee Nellie Ohr, but her husband Bruce Ohr, who ranked number four in the DOJ.
Ohr will testify in Congress in two weeks
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/no-time-limits-no-public-circus-bruce-ohr-to-testify-behind-closed-doors-trey-gowdy-says

No coverage by the NY Times, WaPo, CNN, MSNBC. Why not?
 You say, "The article reveals", but that was what I asked. So, again, "Which part?"
Here are numerous parts. Here are two:


Emails in 2016 between former British spy Christopher Steele and Justice Department official Bruce Ohr suggest Steele was deeply concerned about the legal status of a Putin-linked Russian oligarch, and at times seemed to be advocating on the oligarch's behalf, in the same time period Steele worked on collecting the Russia-related allegations against Donald Trump that came to be known as the Trump dossier. The emails show Steele and Ohr were in frequent contact, that they intermingled talk about Steele's research and the oligarch's affairs, and that Glenn Simpson, head of the dirt-digging group Fusion GPS that hired Steele to compile the dossier, was also part of the ongoing conversation.
and 


Then, on July 1, came the first apparent reference to Donald Trump, then preparing to accept the Republican nomination for president. "I am seeing [redacted] in London next week to discuss ongoing business," Steele wrote to Ohr, "but there is something separate I wanted to discuss with you informally and separately. It concerns our favourite business tycoon!" Steele said he had planned to come to the U.S. soon, but now it looked like it would not be until August. He needed to talk in the next few days, he said, and suggested getting together by Skype before he left on holiday. Ohr suggested talking on July 7. Steele agreed.
Ohr's phone log for July 7 notes, "Call with Chris Steele" from 8:00 a.m. to 8:30 a.m. eastern time.
(A caution here: It is possible the "favourite business tycoon" could be Deripaska, or perhaps even someone else, and not Trump. But no one referred to Deripaska in that way anywhere else in the communications. Also, Steele made it clear the "tycoon" subject was separate from other business. And July 1 was just before Steele met with the FBI with the first installment of the Trump dossier. So it appears reasonable, given Steele's well-known obsession with Trump, and unless information emerges otherwise, to see the "favourite business tycoon" as Trump.)

 Thanks.  I didn't want to presume what your argument was, or what you thought was there that supported your general "nefarious" description.  I've read those in context, and I'll give my own reaction in the next posts.


paulsurovell said:

Here are numerous parts. Here are two:


Emails in 2016 between former British spy Christopher Steele and Justice Department official Bruce Ohr suggest Steele was deeply concerned about the legal status of a Putin-linked Russian oligarch, and at times seemed to be advocating on the oligarch's behalf, in the same time period Steele worked on collecting the Russia-related allegations against Donald Trump that came to be known as the Trump dossier. The emails show Steele and Ohr were in frequent contact, that they intermingled talk about Steele's research and the oligarch's affairs, and that Glenn Simpson, head of the dirt-digging group Fusion GPS that hired Steele to compile the dossier, was also part of the ongoing conversation.


 Okay, regarding the first one.  As you know, Simpson's whole business is about gathering information, and he does it for anyone who pays.  He even works for Russian oligarchs, for example to help them fight the Magnitsky Act sanctions.  So if they were talking about "the oligarch's affairs", that would be consistent with the lobbying he was involved in.  

Byron York makes a big assumption to claim they were talking about Trump, not about Simpson's Russian clients.  And if Ohr is going to be interviewed, as you say, then there can be more investigation.  

By the way, you're one conspiracy theory behind.  You should look at the one where Hillary and the DNC used Simpson and Fusion GPS to use the Russians to set up the Trump Tower meeting.  A conspiracy to entrap Donald Trump Jr., who was obviously an innocent victim.  Get back to us on that.


paulsurovell said:


Here are numerous parts. Here are two:

...

and 


Then, on July 1, came the first apparent reference to Donald Trump, then preparing to accept the Republican nomination for president. "I am seeing [redacted] in London next week to discuss ongoing business," Steele wrote to Ohr, "but there is something separate I wanted to discuss with you informally and separately. It concerns our favourite business tycoon!" Steele said he had planned to come to the U.S. soon, but now it looked like it would not be until August. He needed to talk in the next few days, he said, and suggested getting together by Skype before he left on holiday. Ohr suggested talking on July 7. Steele agreed.
Ohr's phone log for July 7 notes, "Call with Chris Steele" from 8:00 a.m. to 8:30 a.m. eastern time.
(A caution here: It is possible the "favourite business tycoon" could be Deripaska, or perhaps even someone else, and not Trump. But no one referred to Deripaska in that way anywhere else in the communications. Also, Steele made it clear the "tycoon" subject was separate from other business. And July 1 was just before Steele met with the FBI with the first installment of the Trump dossier. So it appears reasonable, given Steele's well-known obsession with Trump, and unless information emerges otherwise, to see the "favourite business tycoon" as Trump.)

 Even Byron York has to admit "It is possible the 'favourite business tycoon' could be Deripaska, or perhaps even someone else, and not Trump."

It's more than possible, it's most likely.  All the conversations up to that point were about Deripaska, referred to in various ways.  Steele said he was meeting someone else, not named, to discuss ongoing business he had with that person.  So saying "something separate" involving Deripaska is a completely logical statement, that doesn't have to mean Trump at all.

Byron's projecting his own assumptions ("given Steele's well-know obsession with Trump").  This was on July 1, and you know that Steele had only been hired in June, so he had barely begun his work.  Whatever he learned later, is what he expressed concern about, also later than July 1.  

Without more there's nothing there to support Byron's assumptions.  


South_Mountaineer said:


paulsurovell said:

Here are numerous parts. Here are two:

...
and 

Then, on July 1, came the first apparent reference to Donald Trump, then preparing to accept the Republican nomination for president. "I am seeing [redacted] in London next week to discuss ongoing business," Steele wrote to Ohr, "but there is something separate I wanted to discuss with you informally and separately. It concerns our favourite business tycoon!" Steele said he had planned to come to the U.S. soon, but now it looked like it would not be until August. He needed to talk in the next few days, he said, and suggested getting together by Skype before he left on holiday. Ohr suggested talking on July 7. Steele agreed.
Ohr's phone log for July 7 notes, "Call with Chris Steele" from 8:00 a.m. to 8:30 a.m. eastern time.
(A caution here: It is possible the "favourite business tycoon" could be Deripaska, or perhaps even someone else, and not Trump. But no one referred to Deripaska in that way anywhere else in the communications. Also, Steele made it clear the "tycoon" subject was separate from other business. And July 1 was just before Steele met with the FBI with the first installment of the Trump dossier. So it appears reasonable, given Steele's well-known obsession with Trump, and unless information emerges otherwise, to see the "favourite business tycoon" as Trump.)
 Even Byron York has to admit "It is possible the 'favourite business tycoon' could be Deripaska, or perhaps even someone else, and not Trump."
It's more than possible, it's most likely.  All the conversations up to that point were about Deripaska, referred to in various ways.  Steele said he was meeting someone else, not named, to discuss ongoing business he had with that person.  So saying "something separate" involving Deripaska is a completely logical statement, that doesn't have to mean Trump at all.
Byron's projecting his own assumptions ("given Steele's well-know obsession with Trump").  This was on July 1, and you know that Steele had only been hired in June, so he had barely begun his work.  Whatever he learned later, is what he expressed concern about, also later than July 1.  
Without more there's nothing there to support Byron's assumptions.  

Of course the emails don't "prove" what was discussed between Steele and Bruce Ohr, but a reasonable inference is that the dossier was a topic. We do know that Ohr's wife Nellie, a Russian expert, worked for Fusion GPS during the creation of the dossier. One of the meetings cited in the emails was between Bruce, Nellie and Steele.

One thing that has been proven by the Ohr-Steele emails is that Glenn Simpson lied in his testimony to the House Intelligence committee about his contacts with the DOJ and FBI:

https://twitter.com/ChuckRossDC/status/1027974703577686016

Bruce Ohr will have a chance to explain his relationship with Steele and Simpson and his (Ohr's) relationship with his wife Nellie and her relationship with Steele and Simpson before the House Oversight and Judiciary Committees on August 28th.


Just to recap, the discussion started with this -

paulsurovell said:
The Department of Justice appears to have been involved in the creation of the Steele dossier, which would be a real attack on our democracy.
This story, which exposes a nefarious project of the political establishment, is being censored by the corporate media, which is the mouthpiece of the political establishment.

 

paulsurovell said:
The article reveals that the nefarious Steele disinformation dossier involved collusion not only with Fusion GPS employee Nellie Ohr, but her husband Bruce Ohr, who ranked number four in the DOJ.

 Which after I commented has turned into this -

paulsurovell said:
Of course the emails don't "prove" what was discussed between Steele and Bruce Ohr, but a reasonable inference is that the dossier was a topic. We do know that Ohr's wife Nellie, a Russian expert, worked for Fusion GPS during the creation of the dossier. One of the meetings cited in the emails was between Bruce, Nellie and Steele.

 You're down to "reasonable inference".  It's not a "reasonable inference" at all, for reasons I already wrote about above.  Steele and Simpson do work for all sorts, including Russians.  Byron York is making an assumption - and that's not enough for you to write that it is a fact that there's "a nefarious project of the political establishment, is being censored by the corporate media, which is the mouthpiece of the political establishment."

And by the way, what you call "One of the meetings cited in the emails was between Bruce, Nellie and Steele", was a Saturday morning breakfast.  

I can't figure out which way Byron York thinks the information is flowing, by the way.  I think the only thing we can be certain of is that the Trumpists have found another public servant they want to ruin so as to deflect from the President.


South_Mountaineer said:
Just to recap, the discussion started with this -
paulsurovell said:
The Department of Justice appears to have been involved in the creation of the Steele dossier, which would be a real attack on our democracy.
This story, which exposes a nefarious project of the political establishment, is being censored by the corporate media, which is the mouthpiece of the political establishment.
 

paulsurovell said:
The article reveals that the nefarious Steele disinformation dossier involved collusion not only with Fusion GPS employee Nellie Ohr, but her husband Bruce Ohr, who ranked number four in the DOJ.
 Which after I commented has turned into this -
paulsurovell said:
Of course the emails don't "prove" what was discussed between Steele and Bruce Ohr, but a reasonable inference is that the dossier was a topic. We do know that Ohr's wife Nellie, a Russian expert, worked for Fusion GPS during the creation of the dossier. One of the meetings cited in the emails was between Bruce, Nellie and Steele.
 You're down to "reasonable inference".  It's not a "reasonable inference" at all, for reasons I already wrote about above.  Steele and Simpson do work for all sorts, including Russians.  Byron York is making an assumption - and that's not enough for you to write that it is a fact that there's "a nefarious project of the political establishment, is being censored by the corporate media, which is the mouthpiece of the political establishment."
And by the way, what you call "One of the meetings cited in the emails was between Bruce, Nellie and Steele", was a Saturday morning breakfast.  
I can't figure out which way Byron York thinks the information is flowing, by the way.  I think the only thing we can be certain of is that the Trumpists have found another public servant they want to ruin so as to deflect from the President.

 I didn't realize that breakfast meetings are not allowed to discuss dirty dossiers.


Excellent statement by Sen Richard Burr

https://www.burr.senate.gov/press/releases/statement-from-senate-intel-chairman-richard-burr-on-comments-by-former-cia-director-john-brennan-


I'm not sure about every detail, but overall this sounds accurate:



paulsurovell said:


South_Mountaineer said:

You're down to "reasonable inference".  It's not a "reasonable inference" at all, for reasons I already wrote about above.  Steele and Simpson do work for all sorts, including Russians.  Byron York is making an assumption - and that's not enough for you to write that it is a fact that there's "a nefarious project of the political establishment, is being censored by the corporate media, which is the mouthpiece of the political establishment."
And by the way, what you call "One of the meetings cited in the emails was between Bruce, Nellie and Steele", was a Saturday morning breakfast.  
I can't figure out which way Byron York thinks the information is flowing, by the way.  I think the only thing we can be certain of is that the Trumpists have found another public servant they want to ruin so as to deflect from the President.
 I didn't realize that breakfast meetings are not allowed to discuss dirty dossiers.

Paul, as someone who is usually so meticulous about separating allegation from fact, do you think South_Mountaineer’s main critique here has no merit? His or her aside, after all, was just an aside.


DaveSchmidt said:


paulsurovell said:


South_Mountaineer said:

You're down to "reasonable inference".  It's not a "reasonable inference" at all, for reasons I already wrote about above.  Steele and Simpson do work for all sorts, including Russians.  Byron York is making an assumption - and that's not enough for you to write that it is a fact that there's "a nefarious project of the political establishment, is being censored by the corporate media, which is the mouthpiece of the political establishment."
And by the way, what you call "One of the meetings cited in the emails was between Bruce, Nellie and Steele", was a Saturday morning breakfast.  
I can't figure out which way Byron York thinks the information is flowing, by the way.  I think the only thing we can be certain of is that the Trumpists have found another public servant they want to ruin so as to deflect from the President.
 I didn't realize that breakfast meetings are not allowed to discuss dirty dossiers.
Paul, as someone who is usually so meticulous about separating allegation from fact, do you think South_Mountaineer’s main critique here has no merit? His or her aside, after all, was just an aside.
 

With regard to my central comment:

paulsurovell said:
The Department of Justice appears to have been involved in the creation of the Steele dossier, which would be a real attack on our democracy.

This story, which exposes a nefarious project of the political establishment, is being censored by the corporate media, which is the mouthpiece of the political establishment.

In my first (umbrella) sentence I used the term "appears," indicating that I was making an assertion, or allegation, not stating a fact.

In the second sentence I concede my language erroneously states as fact what I had previously indicated was an allegation. In response to South_Mountaineer's criticism, I conceded his criticism by calling my statement a "reasonable inference."  So I conceded that it has not been established as fact that Ohr's many communications and (several?) meetings with Steele during the creation of the dirty dossier involved collusion on the dossier. But I maintain that it is a reasonable inference to reach that conclusion. The facts that Ohr's wife was working for Steele's supervisor during the creation of the dossier, and that Bruce and Nellie Ohr or met with Steele during that period reinforce that reasonable inference.

With regard to the second half of the second sentence, Yes, it is a fact, that at the time of the post, the story of Ohr's numerous communications with Steele, was being censored by the corporate media.

So in summary, I think I had already addressed S_M's criticism's prior to your post.


Aaron Mate dismantles Mueller's Papadopoulos sentencing memo in 4 Tweets, starting here. Another Russiagate "bombshell" that turned into a dud https://twitter.com/aaronjmate/status/1030834109822713857


paulsurovell said:

So in summary, I think I had already addressed S_M's criticism's prior to your post.

Got it. Readers can mentally add “exposes what appears to be a nefarious project” and “the nefarious Steele disinformation dossier appears to have involved collusion.” And in the future, depending on how they phrase their posts, there may even be room to grant commenters their “reasonable inferences” about this thread’s topic without dismissing them out of hand as not being a fact. (I have a feeling we may not have seen the last of that phrase.)


paulsurovell said:

Aaron Mate dismantles Mueller's Papadopoulos sentencing memo in 4 Tweets, starting here. Another Russiagate "bombshell" that turned into a dud https://twitter.com/aaronjmate/status/1030834109822713857

 He's right that Papadopoulos wasn't the bearer of the "smoking gun" that some people speculated he would be.  The rest of what Mate asserts, to undercut Mueller, is really not as accurate.  I'd recommend this article from yesterday, instead.

https://www.lawfareblog.com/myth-busting-papadopoulos-sentencing-memo

Especially, the conclusion:

"The bottom line is that the George Papadopoulos story should be neither blithely dismissed nor inflated into more than it likely is. It appears to have been the trigger for the Russia investigation. It does not appear to hold the key to what we don’t yet know about L’Affaire Russe."

Emphasis added, because of other speculation and accusations about how and why the investigation started.



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