The Enemy

Is there any reason to not consider Trump supporters the enemy of democracy and America at this point?

I'm not sure what that gets us, exactly, other than being honest.

If we don't consider them an enemy, then what? Are we supposed to pretend that they can be won over?

Not to liberal policies, but to reality.

That's the real issue - the fact that they are increasingly more and more unhinged . The more they get that way, the more they are unreachable to rational conversations about politics.

What are we to do with them?


I mean, christalmighty, listen to these morons


this is a new one to me. don't worry about global warming cause it will start getting cooler.


Trump Supporters are not your enemy. Or mine. As easy as it is to think of them that way.

A lot of them are single issue voters (anti-abortion OR 2nd amendment OR scared of immigrants OR anti-tax). They believe in one thing so deeply they can't possibly accept a reality where the guy who supports their cause can be the villain. So they seek out news sources that downplay his misdeeds and incompetence. 

Some are people who are scared because their world is changing in ways they think they have no control over. White people who can't open their minds to see that what they think is normal is actually privelege. Christians who see inclusion as an attack on their faith. 

Remember what Clinton's "basket of deplorables" comment did in 2016.

We are who we're brought up to be. I give my mom and dad tremendous props for raising us without a lot of the casual(and overt) racism they heard from their parents. Lots of these people didn't benefit from that kind of effort. 

I know I'm kind of all over the place here but casting Trump supporters as the enemy is counterproductive in my view. I wish I knew the answer. Assuming they're all in their 80s and dying off is also not feasible.


mrincredible said:

Trump Supporters are not your enemy. Or mine. As easy as it is to think of them that way.

A lot of them are single issue voters (anti-abortion OR 2nd amendment OR scared of immigrants OR anti-tax). They believe in one thing so deeply they can't possibly accept a reality where the guy who supports their cause can be the villain. So they seek out news sources that downplay his misdeeds and incompetence. 

Some are people who are scared because their world is changing in ways they think they have no control over. White people who can't open their minds to see that what they think is normal is actually privelege. Christians who see inclusion as an attack on their faith. 

Remember what Clinton's "basket of deplorables" comment did in 2016.

We are who we're brought up to be. I give my mom and dad tremendous props for raising us without a lot of the casual(and overt) racism they heard from their parents. Lots of these people didn't benefit from that kind of effort. 

I know I'm kind of all over the place here but casting Trump supporters as the enemy is counterproductive in my view. I wish I knew the answer. Assuming they're all in their 80s and dying off is also not feasible.

 Agreed...Don't confuse the hysteria of he moment with the need for a deliberate and consistent effort to move the American "attitude" to a more open and equalitarian one. We can't expect that to happen overnight. What we can expect is to replace the current disaster in the White House with a calm, empathetic and sober servant (which is the exact definition of Joe Biden), make those incremental steps to calm the fire, and then start to change the discussion to where we all think we should be. We can't do it all in November, but we must take that first step.


mrincredible said:

Trump Supporters are not your enemy. Or mine. As easy as it is to think of them that way.

A lot of them are single issue voters (anti-abortion OR 2nd amendment OR scared of immigrants OR anti-tax). They believe in one thing so deeply they can't possibly accept a reality where the guy who supports their cause can be the villain. So they seek out news sources that downplay his misdeeds and incompetence. 

Some are people who are scared because their world is changing in ways they think they have no control over. White people who can't open their minds to see that what they think is normal is actually privelege. Christians who see inclusion as an attack on their faith. 

Remember what Clinton's "basket of deplorables" comment did in 2016.

We are who we're brought up to be. I give my mom and dad tremendous props for raising us without a lot of the casual(and overt) racism they heard from their parents. Lots of these people didn't benefit from that kind of effort. 

I know I'm kind of all over the place here but casting Trump supporters as the enemy is counterproductive in my view. I wish I knew the answer. Assuming they're all in their 80s and dying off is also not feasible.

 I'd like to see some numbers on how many of them are single issue voters.  I'll bet its a lot smaller than you think.  

Lots of people have struggles, worries, whatever.  Along with a right to vote, I would argue that adults have the responsibility to do a little bit of homework.  You really don't have to look very hard to see Trump's true colors.  Anyone who can't do a little bit of homework, and takes action resulting in the death of tens of thousands of people is certainly my enemy.  That doesn't mean I or my preferred candidate for the Presidency should go around announcing that.  


What did Hillary's comment do, exactly?

It's counterproductive to what?

I realize it's hard to generalize about 60 million people, but what makes you think so many are one issue voters?

All I know is that whenever I see a Trump supporter on the TV, they are scary as sh!t in the way they think about the world, and their attitudes towards Trump. And at the moment, they are one of the main reasons we can't get COVID under control - solely because of their idiocy.

Sounds like an enemy to me.


If Trump supporters were declared the enemy, what does that call for on a practical level? slapping them? Destroying their lawn signs? Farting in their general direction? 


Classifying anyone with conflicting views as an enemy means everyone loses because then you don't need elections, just whatever violence is necessary to defeat them. Identifying "enemies" is Trump's game for suckers and there is no reason anyone has to play.


Yeah, "enemies" was Nixon's word too.  Bad idea then, too, imo.


mrincredible said:

Remember what Clinton's "basket of deplorables" comment did in 2016.

I don't know if it "did" anything.

I know a lot of Trump supporters misquoted her, and then used that as a silly excuse - because they were never going to vote for Hillary Clinton anyway.

I think the same applies to those who sat the election out. 


truth said:

Classifying anyone with conflicting views as an enemy means everyone loses because then you don't need elections, just whatever violence is necessary to defeat them. Identifying "enemies" is Trump's game for suckers and there is no reason anyone has to play.

It's not a question of "conflicting views". It's a question of being tethered to reality or not.

Do you think the people at that anti-mask rally in the first video I posted simply have "conflicting views"?



Drummer Boy: Perhaps you are correct. Maybe these people need to be rounded up and contained so as not to be a threat. When that starts, they may start hiding so a body of discreet agents should be set up, lets call them secret police, to look for them and the public can be enlisted and encouraged to inform the authorities about these people. As persons incapable of being part of the pure party politic, they may only be useful by providing labor during their containment. They can be introduced to re-education to try to conform them to your norm. If that does not work then some other, more permanent, resolution may be required. Is this what you are thinking of?


If I thought labeling my fellow citizens "the enemy" was a good idea then... wouldn't it be more likely that I was a Trump supporter? I mean, what exactly is wrong with Trump's way of looking at things, if we concede the premise in the OP? Seems at that point you're just arguing over whether you prefer the color blue or the color red.


truth said:

Drummer Boy: Perhaps you are correct. Maybe these people need to be rounded up and contained so as not to be a threat. When that starts, they may start hiding so a body of discreet agents should be set up, lets call them secret police, to look for them and the public can be enlisted and encouraged to inform the authorities about these people. As persons incapable of being part of the pure party politic, they may only be useful by providing labor during their containment. They can be introduced to re-education to try to conform them to your norm. If that does not work then some other, more permanent, resolution may be required. Is this what you are thinking of?

 oy


Let's review the OP, as there seem to be some interpretive problems

drummerboy said:

Is there any reason to not consider Trump supporters the enemy of democracy and America at this point?


I specifically say " enemy of democracy and America". By America, if unclear, I mean the idea  of America.

i.e. they are working explicitly against those ideals. I am not saying they are enemies of us.

drummerboy said:

I'm not sure what that gets us, exactly, other than being honest.

I admit I have no response to this condition. I certainly am not calling for them to be imprisoned. Or for elections to be banned.


drummerboy said:


If we don't consider them an enemy, then what? Are we supposed to pretend that they can be won over?



I am asking a question. If not an enemy as defined, then what?
No one has answered this question yet.

drummerboy said:

Not to liberal policies, but to reality.

That's the real issue - the fact that they are increasingly more and more unhinged . The more they get that way, the more they are unreachable to rational conversations about politics.


I have further narrowed down the problem with this population. No one has responded to this facet.

drummerboy said:


What are we to do with them?

Another question, which again, no one has answered.

Why do I bother?

Anyway, try to respond to what I wrote, not what you pretend I wrote.



drummerboy said:


What are we to do with them?

Another question, which again, no one has answered.

Why do I bother?

Anyway, try to respond to what I wrote, not what you pretend I wrote.

Fun fact: they think you're the enemy of America. What are they going to do with you?


ridski said:

drummerboy said:


What are we to do with them?

Another question, which again, no one has answered.

Why do I bother?

Anyway, try to respond to what I wrote, not what you pretend I wrote.

Fun fact: they think you're the enemy of America. What are they going to do with you?

 that's their problem


ridski said:

drummerboy said:


What are we to do with them?

Another question, which again, no one has answered.

Why do I bother?

Anyway, try to respond to what I wrote, not what you pretend I wrote.

Fun fact: they think you're the enemy of America. What are they going to do with you?

They just told us last Sunday:

In the Sunday video, Caputo mentioned a series of conspiracy theories and predicted that Trump will win reelection but that his Democratic opponent, Joe Biden, will not concede, which Caputo claimed would lead to political violence.

"And when Donald Trump refuses to stand down at the inauguration, the shooting will begin," he said. "The drills that you've seen are nothing." He also added, "If you carry guns, buy ammunition, ladies and gentlemen, because it's going to be hard to get."

https://www.cnn.com/2020/09/14/politics/michael-caputo-coronavirus-sedition-election/index.html


drummerboy said:

Why do I bother?

 No one has answered this question yet.


drummerboy said:

 that's their problem

 


DaveSchmidt said:

drummerboy said:

Why do I bother?

 No one has answered this question yet.

 That's his problem.


there isn't anything to be gained by calling the Trumpist base the "enemy."  I've written many times that Trump is a symptom and not a disease that can be cured by electing Biden.  It's obvious that our country is very, very broken, and tens of millions of people have an essentially nihilistic outlook.  Their main ideological motivation isn't about electing people to do good things for the country, it's about owning the libs.  And on top of that they are anti-science, anti-knowledge, and are being fed a steady diet of misinformation and propaganda (most of which is designed to stoke their anger and hatred of the libtards).  So yes, this country has an awful lot of work to do if we want to actually solve any of the big issues we face. And that will mean trying to cure ourselves of the cancerous conditions that created Trumpism.  It's not going to be easy, and frankly I'm not optimistic that our country is up to the task.  But does that mean half the country are "enemies" of the United States?  I'm not prepared to think that way, and I'm almost certain that thinking that way has no useful purpose in solving the problem.


If Trump decided to send all immigrants or all Muslims to Concentration Camps what % of his supporters 

A. Would deny that it's happening

B. Hide people in their attics.

C. Be willing to to serve as Concentration Camp Guards.

There are Trump supporters who see people like us as "enemies" and would have little or no problem with us being locked up.

Trump took young children from their parents and put them in cages and his supporters still love him.

So while DB's labeling of a large part of the population as "enemies" may be extreme we should be extremely cautious.


STANV said:

If Trump decided to send all immigrants or all Muslims to Concentration Camps what % of his supporters 

A. Would deny that it's happening

B. Hide people in their attics.

C. Be willing to to serve as Concentration Camp Guards.

There are Trump supporters who see people like us as "enemies" and would have little or no problem with us being locked up.

Trump took young children from their parents and put them in cages and his supporters still love him.

So while DB's labeling of a large part of the population as "enemies" may be extreme we should be extremely cautious.

You forgot

D. Change the subject to looting and post silly pictures of cats


STANV said:

If Trump decided to send all immigrants or all Muslims to Concentration Camps what % of his supporters 

A. Would deny that it's happening

B. Hide people in their attics.

C. Be willing to to serve as Concentration Camp Guards.

There are Trump supporters who see people like us as "enemies" and would have little or no problem with us being locked up.

Trump took young children from their parents and put them in cages and his supporters still love him.

So while DB's labeling of a large part of the population as "enemies" may be extreme we should be extremely cautious.

 If it came to that, the percentage of people who voted against Trump but who would become collaborators would not be small.

From an article by Anne Applebaum in the July/August Atlantic:

We all feel the urge to conform; it is the most normal of human desires. I was reminded of this recently when I visited Marianne Birthler in her light-filled apartment in Berlin. During the 1980s, Birthler was one of a very small number of active dissidents in East Germany; later, in reunified Germany, she spent more than a decade running the Stasi archive, the collection of former East German secret-police files. I asked her whether she could identify among her cohort a set of circumstances that had inclined some people to collaborate with the Stasi.

She was put off by the question. Collaboration wasn’t interesting, Birthler told me. Almost everyone was a collaborator; 99 percent of East Germans collaborated. If they weren’t working with the Stasi, then they were working with the party, or with the system more generally.

My intent in labeling them enemies was not that we should call them enemies, and leave it at that. I'm talking about understanding their true intentions and motivations, such as they are.

I think people are underestimating them.


drummerboy said:

My intent in labeling them enemies was not that we should call them enemies, and leave it at that. I'm talking about understanding their true intentions and motivations, such as they are.

I think people are underestimating them.

Admittedly my interactions with the hard core Trumpers are limited to social media. But most of the ones I encounter aren't "enemies" of anyone really. They live in a complete opposite reality than those of us who oppose Trump. It's almost as if they are living a delusion or a hallucination. They believe a whole constellation of things that are objectively and observably false. Many of these people seem more like victims themselves than victimizers. I have no idea what the solution is to a country in which 100 million people are living outside objective reality. But I'm pretty sure our problem isn't that they are an enemy within. 


This thread reminds me of one of Chris Berman's best nicknames - Eric "Sleeping with" Bieniemy.



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