Russia's unprovoked invasion of Ukraine

Some good news, pro Ukrainian Russian soldiers are launching attacks on Russian soil. Reports of traffic jams as Russian civilians leave Belgorod 


Jaytee said:

Some good news, pro Ukrainian Russian soldiers are launching attacks on Russian soil. Reports of traffic jams as Russian civilians leave Belgorod 


I want to war to be over and the Russians out of Ukraine.  However, I don't think anybody in their right mind wants to see chaos in Russia.


tjohn said:

I want to war to be over and the Russians out of Ukraine.  However, I don't think anybody in their right mind wants to see chaos in Russia.

Of course nobody wants to see chaos in Russia. But, that chaos is the inevitable result of Putin's war.

The chaos now is nothing compared to what it will be, when the war is finally over.  Putin will have lost, in the sense that Ukraine will still exist as a nation - and any territory Russia holds as a result of the war will be the site of insurgencies. That type of chaos could easily spread to other captive nations within Russia, who have seen that the Moscow government failed in its effort to dominate Ukraine.


I may not be in my right mind, but I would love to see Putin defeated and removed in a body bag. Lots of empires have collapsed after being defeated militarily, Russia is no exception. The internal crisis will be the Russians having to fight off all the other ethnic groups they have oppressed for centuries. risk of large scale violence would be between the military, the intelligence services, Putin’s National Guard created in 2016, and, the militias. Putin will have his Julius Caesar moment…


Jaytee said:

I may not be in my right mind, but I would love to see Putin defeated and removed in a body bag. Lots of empires have collapsed after being defeated militarily, Russia is no exception. The internal crisis will be the Russians having to fight off all the other ethnic groups they have oppressed for centuries. risk of large scale violence would be between the military, the intelligence services, Putin’s National Guard created in 2016, and, the militias. Putin will have his Julius Caesar moment…

World War I did in the Ottoman and Austro-Hungarian empires.  World War II did in the British empire. The Tsarist empire is overdue for a break-up. 


I feel the Russians know the game is over, and they can’t fight off the Ukrainian counteroffensive. So flooding the land they can no longer hold makes sense. That’s how they think, that’s how Putin thinks. Wouldn’t it affect the Crimea region as well? It’s their “scorched earth” mentality which makes me believe that they know they are losing the fight. 
Evil bastards.


Given the death and destruction we have visited upon our enemies in time of war - some deservedly, some not so much - I am not going to get too outraged over Russian methods.  But Russian actions only make me more inclined to support Ukraine.

Having said that, Putin's mistake with his war was not knowing how it would end.  Seems to be a common mistake - we certainly have made this mistake on several occasions.  So, now we have to pursue this war until Russia is militarily/politically defeated.  And it is hard to tell when then will happen because in Russia, nothing changes and then, without warning, everything changes.


I’m thinking the Russian people are probably fed up with this “special military operation” that is dragging on into month number 17. Just how many nazis were in Ukraine a year and a half ago? It’s kinda ridiculous this entire war isn’t it? Seems like the Russians are so brainwashed that they’re supporting a war that they think is just, after all, it’s nazis they are killing right? So they’re actually looking forward to the destruction of a nation, run by a Jewish man, who has an army of nazis, trying to destroy Russia all over again…

I’m hoping the Ukrainian military cuts off Crimea completely, and then push the Russians back over their borders. Apparently that has already started in certain areas, but the dilemma is that they might not survive the minefields that is between them and their country. They are basically between a rock and a hard place. Such a waste of life. Well maybe Putin knows what he’s doing… he’s getting rid of his trash… but dumping it in his neighbors yard. 


“Is Russia about to experience a period of dramatic political change? If so, can exiled democratic forces unite into a coherent bloc, and is there any way for them to force themselves on to the political scene?

“Nearly 300 exiled Russian opposition politicians and activists gathered to discuss these questions in the European parliament earlier this week, the congress coming as news broke of the Nova Kakhovka dam destruction, the latest grim episode in Vladimir Putin’s war on Ukraine.”

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/jun/10/russia-exiles-life-after-vladimir-putin


tjohn said:

I want to war to be over and the Russians out of Ukraine.  However, I don't think anybody in their right mind wants to see chaos in Russia.

Agreed.  We have been arming Ukraine and we don't seem open to negotiations.  I don't think they are, but I hope the people here are right about the Ukraine offensive.  Otherwise, we are just going to end up with a lot of unnecessary blood on our hands. 


terp said:

Agreed.  We have been arming Ukraine and we don't seem open to negotiations.  I don't think they are, but I hope the people here are right about the Ukraine offensive.  Otherwise, we are just going to end up with a lot of unnecessary blood on our hands. 

what is there to negotiate? Giving away half of their country? Their resources? Their agriculture industry? They already gave up their nuclear weapons, that’s enough. They won’t be fooled again, and they won’t negotiate with Russia. Ask a citizen of Ukraine if they trust a Russian…. 
Putin is the one with blood on his hands. Not us. 


Jaytee said:

terp said:

Agreed.  We have been arming Ukraine and we don't seem open to negotiations.  I don't think they are, but I hope the people here are right about the Ukraine offensive.  Otherwise, we are just going to end up with a lot of unnecessary blood on our hands. 

what is there to negotiate? Giving away half of their country? Their resources? Their agriculture industry? They already gave up their nuclear weapons, that’s enough. They won’t be fooled again, and they won’t negotiate with Russia. Ask a citizen of Ukraine if they trust a Russian…. 
Putin is the one with blood on his hands. Not us. 

Jaytee is willing to fight to the last Ukrainian.  You are so brave. 


Ukrainians are fighting for Ukraine.  Period.  And, as in the case of Poland and the Baltic nations, they know Russia all too well.

Secondarily, this war is a lot of things.  A bit of a proxy war perhaps.  A bit of a war between authoritarianism and liberal democracy.  But for Ukraine, it is a fight for survival.


terp said:

Jaytee is willing to fight to the last Ukrainian.  You are so brave. 

you sound like a Russian bot. 


Jaytee said:

I’m thinking the Russian people are probably fed up with this “special military operation” that is dragging on into month number 17. 

I don't agree that the Russian people are fed up with the special military operation. 

"None of the Russians interviewed drew a connection between their plight and the 8.2 million Ukrainian refugees who have fled Mr. Putin’s brutal war. Constant propaganda has twisted the conflict into a defensive Russian war against the “Nazis” and “Fascists,” backed by the United States and Europe, who, in the Russian telling, gave Moscow no choice but to take military action."

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/06/12/world/europe/russia-war-belgorod.html

Perhaps the oligarchs are fed up with it but the vast majority of the Russian people aren't. 


cramer said:

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/06/12/world/europe/russia-war-belgorod.html

Perhaps the oligarchs are fed up with it but the vast majority of the Russian people aren't. 

The oligarchs get the unfiltered news about what's going on.


News spread in Russia faster than a hypersonic missile…people are finding out what is happening. It’s the older ones who are in denial.


Jaytee said:

News spread in Russia faster than a hypersonic missile…people are finding out what is happening. It’s the older ones who are in denial.

It's the younger and better educated population that has been leaving Russia in droves - exactly because they know what's going on.   


El Capo Vlad is furious that his consigliere Prizo has disrespected him, so the Boss threatens Prizo’s family and the families of the Wagner soldiers. That’s what happens when you run a country like a criminal entity, and it’s not going to end well for any of them. Lukashenko is an associate, street thug, who is an underboss of Capo Vlad. It’s not going to end well for him either, because he has Prizo cornered until the boss man decides what to with him. I’m sure Prizo is not in any building with a second floor, and is preparing his own meals. So capo Vlad has a problem on his hands, how do I get rid of him without causing a civil war inside Russia and Belarus…. Maybe he should consult with trump, 


Jaytee said:

 I’m sure Prizo is not in any building with a second floor, and is preparing his own meals. So capo Vlad has a problem on his hands, how do I get rid of him without causing a civil war inside Russia and Belarus…. 


Are the Russians still believing what their government is telling them about the war? I can’t help but think that they are. Why would anyone go to Crimea now for a vacation? They are basically trapped there right now because the bridge is badly damaged. The Russian military is suggesting that they could drive around through the occupied territories in Ukraine to get back into Russia proper. Which has caused a lot of confusion and panic among the people who now want to go back home. I’m actually not sorry for the inconvenience caused by Ukraine’s military. It’s time they feel the pain that their beloved Putin has inflicted on innocent civilians in Ukraine. High time you people realize that you’re not immune from bombs and destruction. 
They truly do believe that Crimea belongs to them, and the barnacles on the bridge would protect them from the Ukrainian army? Eventually this “puerto Vallarta” of Russia will have to be handed back to its rightful owners. 
Slava Ukraini 


Jaytee said:

Are the Russians still believing what their government is telling them about the war? I can’t help but think that they are. Why would anyone go to Crimea now for a vacation? They are basically trapped there right now because the bridge is badly damaged. The Russian military is suggesting that they could drive around through the occupied territories in Ukraine to get back into Russia proper. Which has caused a lot of confusion and panic among the people who now want to go back home. I’m actually not sorry for the inconvenience caused by Ukraine’s military. It’s time they feel the pain that their beloved Putin has inflicted on innocent civilians in Ukraine. High time you people realize that you’re not immune from bombs and destruction. 
They truly do believe that Crimea belongs to them, and the barnacles on the bridge would protect them from the Ukrainian army? Eventually this “puerto Vallarta” of Russia will have to be handed back to its rightful owners. 
Slava Ukraini 

The Crimean Tatars?  The Sarmatians?


I find the focus on cluster bombs a bit odd considering that Russia's indiscriminate sowing of land mines is a far more serious problem.


F-16 training to begin this month, Zelensky says (WaPo)

Ukraine will work with nations supplying F-16s to transfer the advanced jets after training, Zelensky said Wednesday, acknowledging that the task is a challenging one. In May, Denmark and the Netherlands were tapped to lead a European coalition to provide training and maintenance to Ukrainian pilots after the Biden administration relented under pressure to allow allied nations to send U.S.-made F-16s to Kyiv.

Jaytee said:

So capo Vlad has a problem on his hands, how do I get rid of him ...

A plane crash. How convenient.


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