OK, so what is the exact standard to prove a Nazi is bad?  How many gas chambers? Do we have to have gas chambers?  How many brutal killings?  Do I get extra points for women and children or are they same as the men?  If they only killed 10,000 are they still considered nice?

You need to define your terms clearly. 

Just list the ongoing atrocities.

How many people are they killing monthly, weekly, daily?

where are these killings are taking place?

Who are they killing?

who is their current leader?

Shows the current speech by this leader

how many Nazis have been eliminated by Putin denazification campaign

How does he measure success?

jamie said:

Just list the ongoing atrocities.

How many people are they killing monthly, weekly, daily?

where are these killings are taking place?

Who are they killing?

who is their current leader?

Shows the current speech by this leader

how many Nazis have been eliminated by Putin denazification campaign

How does he measure success?

So they have to kill people frequently?  That’s essential? If they kill one hundred people in a day but then go without killing for the rest of the year it does not count?  Is there a minimum number of people that have to be killed?  You need to define the standard. 

Also, where is this standard located? Did you write it or does it come from somewhere else? Is it legally binding or just an opinion? Are there multiple standards or just one? 

As for leadership, do they have to have one leader or are multiple factions with separate leaders ok?

You need to define your terms better. Seems kind of vague. I’m not going to just spitball about Nazis. That’s just a trap. 

I we just need a list of crimes that led to the start of this massive war as I said if you can properly diagnose that it was the Nazis then you might have a case and the world will get behind you and vlad.

Who is the current leader how many people are they currently killing on a daily monthly and yearly basis?

According to vlad we’re tslking Nazi Germany level issues so let’s make that the comparison.

Why is Putin Calling the Ukrainian Government a Bunch of Nazis? | ADL

“There are neo-Nazis in Ukraine, just as there are in the U.S., and in Russia for that matter. But they are a very marginal group with no political influence and who don’t attack Jews or Jewish institutions in Ukraine. Putin’s propaganda is so far from the truth that it doesn’t survive the first contact with even a little knowledge.”

[Edited to add] Similarly - 

"By claiming that the aim of the invasion is to 'denazify' Ukraine, Putin appeals to the myths of contemporary eastern European antisemitism – that a global cabal of Jews were (and are) the real agents of violence against Russian Christians and the real victims of the Nazis were not the Jews, but rather this group. Russian Christians are targets of a conspiracy by a global elite, who, using the vocabulary of liberal democracy and human rights, attack the Christian faith and the Russian nation. Putin’s propaganda is not aimed at an obviously skeptical west, but rather appeals domestically to this strain of Christian nationalism."

The antisemitism animating Putin’s claim to ‘denazify’ Ukraine | Jason Stanley | The Guardian

nan - here's an outline where you can cut and paste and change with relevant numbers to today's Nazi scourge.

These are some of the stats relating to Nazi Germany prior to US intervention:

Estimated victims before U.S. entry

Approximate figures (1933–December 1941):

• Jews murdered: ~500,000–900,000
• Polish civilians executed: tens of thousands
• Disabled people murdered (Aktion T4): ~70,000–100,000
• Political prisoners imprisoned: hundreds of thousands
• Roma murdered: tens of thousands
• Millions subjected to persecution, forced labor, imprisonment, or deportation.

Now just supply similar stats which can show the world why the US and other countries need to join in with Putin's crusade to rid the world of these massive Nazi armies for a second time.

nohero said:

Why is Putin Calling the Ukrainian Government a Bunch of Nazis? | ADL

“There are neo-Nazis in Ukraine, just as there are in the U.S., and in Russia for that matter. But they are a very marginal group with no political influence and who don’t attack Jews or Jewish institutions in Ukraine. Putin’s propaganda is so far from the truth that it doesn’t survive the first contact with even a little knowledge.”

[Edited to add] Similarly - 

"By claiming that the aim of the invasion is to 'denazify' Ukraine, Putin appeals to the myths of contemporary eastern European antisemitism – that a global cabal of Jews were (and are) the real agents of violence against Russian Christians and the real victims of the Nazis were not the Jews, but rather this group. Russian Christians are targets of a conspiracy by a global elite, who, using the vocabulary of liberal democracy and human rights, attack the Christian faith and the Russian nation. Putin’s propaganda is not aimed at an obviously skeptical west, but rather appeals domestically to this strain of Christian nationalism."

The antisemitism animating Putin’s claim to ‘denazify’ Ukraine | Jason Stanley | The Guardian

If they have no power than why is the Jewish president bowing down to them by reburying a Nazi collaborator with honors and agreeing to name an army unit after one of Hitler's units?   They may be a small group, but they clearly have political influence. They have more influence than their size would indicate. 

Also, Jason Stanley, who makes a living quantifying TDS (I read his book on facsim), is way out line with those accusations.  There are a lot of Nazis in Ukraine and they hate the Russians more than they hate the Jews because half of their country is filled with people who think of themselves as Russian.  The Ukrainian Nazis want a pure Ukraine without the Russians, whom they call orcs. 

nan said:

 The Ukrainian Nazis want a pure Ukraine without the Russians, whom they call orcs. 

The supposed "Nazi" government has been in power since 2014, and yet to this day there are many Russian speaking Ukrainians. You're always keen to cite the chaos and violence of 2014 and claim any attacks against Russian speakers were directed and orchestrated by the Ukrainian government, but it's a bit strange, isn't it, that in the years since then there aren't reports of anti-Russian pograms? I mean, if they want a pure Ukraine without Russians, what's stopping them from ethnically cleansing Odessa today?

jamie said:

nan - here's an outline where you can cut and paste and change with relevant numbers to today's Nazi scourge.

These are some of the stats relating to Nazi Germany prior to US intervention:

Estimated victims before U.S. entry

Approximate figures (1933–December 1941):

• Jews murdered: ~500,000–900,000
• Polish civilians executed: tens of thousands
• Disabled people murdered (Aktion T4): ~70,000–100,000
• Political prisoners imprisoned: hundreds of thousands
• Roma murdered: tens of thousands
• Millions subjected to persecution, forced labor, imprisonment, or deportation.

Now just supply similar stats which can show the world why the US and other countries need to join in with Putin's crusade to rid the world of these massive Nazi armies for a second time.

We have gone over this so many times and you just go back to the beginning and start all over again.  You never learn.

 So, according to you I have to come up with millions of victims or it does not matter?  If the Nazis only killed people in the thousands they are nice Nazis? 

PVW said:

nan said:

 The Ukrainian Nazis want a pure Ukraine without the Russians, whom they call orcs. 

The supposed "Nazi" government has been in power since 2014, and yet to this day there are many Russian speaking Ukrainians. You're always keen to cite the chaos and violence of 2014 and claim any attacks against Russian speakers were directed and orchestrated by the Ukrainian government, but it's a bit strange, isn't it, that in the years since then there aren't reports of anti-Russian pograms? I mean, if they want a pure Ukraine without Russians, what's stopping them from ethnically cleansing Odessa today?

Well, what is stopping the Nazis in the US from killing the Jews in New York?

PVW said:

nan said:

 The Ukrainian Nazis want a pure Ukraine without the Russians, whom they call orcs. 

The supposed "Nazi" government has been in power since 2014, and yet to this day there are many Russian speaking Ukrainians. You're always keen to cite the chaos and violence of 2014 and claim any attacks against Russian speakers were directed and orchestrated by the Ukrainian government, but it's a bit strange, isn't it, that in the years since then there aren't reports of anti-Russian pograms? I mean, if they want a pure Ukraine without Russians, what's stopping them from ethnically cleansing Odessa today?

The "orcs" are the soldiers invading from Russia. Ms. Nan is spreading disinformation that people in Ukraine call their fellow Ukrainians "orcs".

I'll disagree that the ADL is "soft" on antisemitism, and the dismissal of Professor Stanley's work is similarly uninformed.

nan said:

Well, what is stopping the Nazis in the US from killing the Jews in New York?

If you were accusing the US of being controlled by Nazis, this would be a good point to raise to counter such an accusation.

Here is some information on Ukrainian Nazis.  You can see, contrary to what Nohero posted, that they do focus on and hate Russians. Also, I thought they called Russians "orcs" but that might have been from a Lord of the Rings Movie.  Here some other names are given. 

Far-right Ukrainian nationalist groups (often labeled "Nazis" in Russian narratives) expressed strong anti-Russian hostility after 2014, framed as resistance to invasion and separatism rather than blanket genocide calls. This occurred amid the Donbas war, where Russian-backed forces fought Ukrainian troops and volunteers. Their rhetoric included dehumanizing language, vows to fight "Muscovites" (a slur for Russians, "москалі"), and preparation for war with Russia. 

Also, this is from AI so they play down the influence as we hear on MOL. 

Key Groups and Figures

• Azov Battalion/Regiment (founded 2014, later integrated into Ukraine's National Guard): Led by Andriy Biletsky. Pre-2014, Biletsky (linked to Patriot of Ukraine/Social National Assembly) made explicit white supremacist statements. In 2010, he reportedly said Ukraine's mission was to "lead the white races of the world in a final crusade… against Semite-led Untermenschen" (subhumans). He later denied or distanced from such remarks and toned down rhetoric post-2014. 
  
  Azov fought effectively against Russian-backed separatists in 2014–2015 (e.g., Mariupol). Their symbols (e.g., Wolfsangel) and early neo-Nazi ties drew scrutiny, but by the full-scale war, it had broadened, included diverse fighters, and focused on combat reputation over ideology. Russian media heavily amplified Azov as proof of "Ukrainian Nazism." 
  
  
• Right Sector (Pravyi Sektor): A coalition of ultranationalists led by Dmytro Yarosh. They played a visible role in Euromaidan (2013–2014) and sent fighters to Donbas. Yarosh stated Ukraine was "doomed to fight a war with the Moscow empire" and prepared for conflict with Russia (e.g., post-Georgia 2008 analogy: "If they stick their faces here... they'll get it in the teeth"). He distinguished the Kremlin from ordinary Russians but advocated "de-Russification." 
  
  Associate Oleksandr Muzychko (killed 2014) had a reputation for radicalism, including past claims involving violence against Russians/Jews (disputed context).

Common Rhetoric and Chants Post-2014

• Slurs and chants: "Москаляку на гілляку" ("Hang the Moskal on the branch") and variations like "москалів на ножі" ("Moskals to the knives") appeared in nationalist circles, football ultras, and protests. These echo historical Ukrainian nationalist hostility toward Russian dominance/empire but spiked with the 2014 conflict. reddit.com
• Volunteers and fighters in Donbas expressed desires to fight/kill invading or separatist forces. This is typical wartime enemy dehumanization (Russians called "orcs," "Moskali," etc., mirroring Russian "Ukronazis" propaganda).
• Broader context: Far-right groups were marginal politically (low election support) but had outsized visibility in volunteer battalions early in Donbas.

Important Context

These groups are real and held extreme views, rooted in historical Ukrainian nationalism (e.g., Bandera/OUN-UPA anti-Soviet/anti-Russian stances during WWII era). Post-2014, the Donbas fighting (thousands dead) radicalized rhetoric on both sides. Some early Azov/Right Sector members had neo-Nazi or white nationalist backgrounds; atrocities or abuses by individuals occurred (as in most wars).

• No mainstream evidence of official Ukrainian policy to "kill Russians" as ethnicity post-2014 (pre-full invasion).
• Azov and others integrated into state forces, broadened recruitment, and prioritized defense.
• Some Ukrainian far-right figures and fighters voiced intent to violently resist and kill Russian forces/separatists after 2014, using nationalist/dehumanizing language. 

Again, you claim they're so influential, and yet you can't seem to cite any actual attacks on Russian speaking Ukrainians going on today. Strange how they supposedly control the government but they're fine with all these Russian speakers they supposedly hate just living their lives in Ukraine.

nohero said:

PVW said:

nan said:

 The Ukrainian Nazis want a pure Ukraine without the Russians, whom they call orcs. 

The supposed "Nazi" government has been in power since 2014, and yet to this day there are many Russian speaking Ukrainians. You're always keen to cite the chaos and violence of 2014 and claim any attacks against Russian speakers were directed and orchestrated by the Ukrainian government, but it's a bit strange, isn't it, that in the years since then there aren't reports of anti-Russian pograms? I mean, if they want a pure Ukraine without Russians, what's stopping them from ethnically cleansing Odessa today?

The "orcs" are the soldiers invading from Russia. Ms. Nan is spreading disinformation that people in Ukraine call their fellow Ukrainians "orcs".

I'll disagree that the ADL is "soft" on antisemitism, and the dismissal of Professor Stanley's work is similarly uninformed.

I'm sure you LOVE Jason Stanley's work. He's writing for people like you. I bought that book of his on fascism because it was highly recommended and it seemed it was all about Trump, described abstractly but designed to stir the pot, not really accurate to what was going on.  

 And yes, I got the orcs wrong - I corrected in my last post.  

PVW said:

nan said:

Well, what is stopping the Nazis in the US from killing the Jews in New York?

If you were accusing the US of being controlled by Nazis, this would be a good point to raise to counter such an accusation.

I don't think the US is controlled by Nazis.  Do you?

PVW said:

Again, you claim they're so influential, and yet you can't seem to cite any actual attacks on Russian speaking Ukrainians going on today. Strange how they supposedly control the government but they're fine with all these Russian speakers they supposedly hate just living their lives in Ukraine.

They were incorporated into the military.  They kill legally now and it's not counted as murder. Even when they kill civilians. 

nan said:

I don't think the US is controlled by Nazis.  Do you?

No, nor have I ever said anything suggesting I do. Hence your question "what is stopping the Nazis in the US from killing the Jews in New York" is answered by pointing out the the US government is not controlled by Nazi. If it were, we would in fact expect to see report of Jews being killed by Nazi gangs in New York.

And yet, you claim that the Ukrainian government is controlled by Nazis who want to kill Russian, yet there are no reports of Nazi gangs going around killing Russians in Odessa.

nan said:

PVW said:

Again, you claim they're so influential, and yet you can't seem to cite any actual attacks on Russian speaking Ukrainians going on today. Strange how they supposedly control the government but they're fine with all these Russian speakers they supposedly hate just living their lives in Ukraine.

They were incorporated into the military. They kill legally now and it's not counted as murder. Even when they kill civilians.

Again, there are no reports of Russian speakers being murdered, legally or not, in Ukraine's Russian-speaking cities.

I'm currently reading Richard Sakwa's new book, "The Russio-Ukrainian War Follies of Empire: https://a.co/d/0gsXWOM4

On page 73 he describes how the far right nationalists (Biletsky-mentioned above) opposed the implementation of the MInsk agreements and made threats to Zelensky:

"Biletsky gained notoriety for arguing that Ukraine's mission was to "lead the White Races of the world in a final crusade. . . against the Semite-led sub-humans (Untermenschen)." This neo-Nazi ideology prompted the US Congress in 2018 (the Leahy Act) to ban any assistance to Azov forces.  Once again, in March 2020, Biletsky took the lead in the anticapitualtion movement opposed t the implementation of the Minsk Accords.  He warned that if Zelensky legitimized the Donbass republics by "introducing them into the Ukrainian legislative and the constitution of our country," or "tries to open the war to Crimea," he would suffer the dire consequences. . . 

Shortly after that Zelensky told the people living in the Donbass that anyone who feels a connection to Russia or Russian culture should pack up and leave for Russia.  

So much for them having no influence. 

Are all of your examples from the active Russia-Ukraine conflict zone? It's a strange type of racial purist, who only is focused on an area with armed conflict but is strangely unconcerned with targeting all the undefended targets of their hatred in non-conflict zones.

PVW said:

nan said:

I don't think the US is controlled by Nazis.  Do you?

No, nor have I ever said anything suggesting I do. Hence your question "what is stopping the Nazis in the US from killing the Jews in New York" is answered by pointing out the the US government is not controlled by Nazi. If it were, we would in fact expect to see report of Jews being killed by Nazi gangs in New York.

And yet, you claim that the Ukrainian government is controlled by Nazis who want to kill Russian, yet there are no reports of Nazi gangs going around killing Russians in Odessa.

nan said:

PVW said:

Again, you claim they're so influential, and yet you can't seem to cite any actual attacks on Russian speaking Ukrainians going on today. Strange how they supposedly control the government but they're fine with all these Russian speakers they supposedly hate just living their lives in Ukraine.

They were incorporated into the military. They kill legally now and it's not counted as murder. Even when they kill civilians.

Again, there are no reports of Russian speakers being murdered, legally or not, in Ukraine's Russian-speaking cities.

I never said the Ukrainian government was controlled by Nazis--I said the Ukrainian government was controlled by the West who employed Nazis to do various nefarious tasks.  The neo-Nazis do have their own views and they do manage to weld influence--as I pointed out they got their Jewish president to honor their Nazi heros. 

Famously, we had the murders in Odessa for which no one was prosecuted.  Those were reported by witnesses to be Nazis. As I said, since the beginning of the war, the neo-Nazis are incorporated in the military so they get to kill all they want. They are all against a peace settlement. No surprise. If I can find it, I have an interview with one of them talking about how fun it is to kill.  Everyone needs a hobby.  

There are plenty of reports of Russian speakers being murdered, just not a big highlight in mainstream news. Also, a lot gets folded into fog of war. 

PVW said:

Are all of your examples from the active Russia-Ukraine conflict zone? It's a strange type of racial purist, who only is focused on an area with armed conflict but is strangely unconcerned with targeting all the undefended targets of their hatred in non-conflict zones.

Could you say that again in English?  Thanks. 

nan said:

Famously, we had the murders in Odessa for which no one was prosecuted.

And strangely, such events have not continued. What is more plausible, that the events in Odessa were directed by the Ukrainian government which, for some reason, then stopped any further such events happening in all the years since, or that these events happened at a time when there was very little effective governance and that, once civil order was restored, we no longer saw such events happening?

nan said:

PVW said:

Are all of your examples from the active Russia-Ukraine conflict zone? It's a strange type of racial purist, who only is focused on an area with armed conflict but is strangely unconcerned with targeting all the undefended targets of their hatred in non-conflict zones.

Could you say that again in English?  Thanks. 

Nazis in Germany didn't only attack Jews caught up in the font lines, yet all your examples of supposed Nazi violence against Russian speakers is only in conflict zones. These are oddly polite Nazis, if their goal is really to kill Russian speakers. The fact that you can't point to attacks on Russian speakers in parts of Ukraine that aren't at war makes argues that the violence is really about the war with Russia, not any broad targeting of Russian speakers.

OK, I think it's important here to understand what Putin meant when he included "denazification" in his list of goals for the war. Jamie keeps focusing on this term literally without trying to comprehend how that fit in with his total list and what he really meant.  Putin did not invade just because he thought all Ukrainians were Nazis, as Jamie seems to want us to believe. It was more like Ukraine under the influence of the West imposed that mindset.

Let's look at some ideas, starting with - 

Richard Sakwa's new book, "The Russio-Ukrainian War Follies of Empire: https://a.co/d/0gsXWOM4 

Page 17 - 

"Putin's February 24 speech outlined two key aims--the "demilitarization" of Ukraine and its "denazification."  The goals echoed those of the Potsdam Conference in July 1945 regarding postwar Nazi Germany. The imprecision of these terms has been ridiculed, yet the formulation of war aims in this way reflected long-standing Russian concerns.  Demilitarization addressed the advance of a hostile military alliance to Russia's boarders, ultimately through for all accession to NATO but more immediately through ad hoc military support for Ukraine. This was perceived as a security threat of the first order.  As for "denazification," the term is undoubtedly provocative and misleading, yet it reflects the genuine concerns provoked by the coming to power of a militant national populist regime through a coercive regime-change operation in February 2014. The revolution imposed a Galician model of state development on the country, provoking a rebellion in the Donbass and signalling the intensification of a second cold war that would be no less pervasive and minacious than the first. This finally spilled over into a brutal war. Domestic conflict was internationalized, turning into a proxy war between Russia and the West. The Political West mobilized to the highest degree since 1945 against an erstwhile ally, the much-delayed Operation Unthinkable--a war of the Allies against an exhausted Soviet Union--that British prime minister Winston Churchill had floated at the end of World War II. . ." 

nan said:

We have gone over this so many times and you just go back to the beginning and start all over again.  You never learn.

 So, according to you I have to come up with millions of victims or it does not matter?  If the Nazis only killed people in the thousands they are nice Nazis? 

just show us their atrocities the past 4 years while Putin is responsible for hundreds of thousands dead.

Why is this so hard?  How many people have the Ukrainian Nazis killed this past month- where are they executing the people and where are these executions taking place?

nan said:

Here is some information on Ukrainian Nazis.  You can see, contrary to what Nohero posted, that they do focus on and hate Russians. Also, I thought they called Russians "orcs" but that might have been from a Lord of the Rings Movie.  Here some other names are given. 

Far-right Ukrainian nationalist groups (often labeled "Nazis" in Russian narratives) expressed strong anti-Russian hostility after 2014, framed as resistance to invasion and separatism rather than blanket genocide calls. This occurred amid the Donbas war, where Russian-backed forces fought Ukrainian troops and volunteers. Their rhetoric included dehumanizing language, vows to fight "Muscovites" (a slur for Russians, "москалі"), and preparation for war with Russia. 

Also, this is from AI so they play down the influence as we hear on MOL. 

Key Groups and Figures

• Azov Battalion/Regiment (founded 2014, later integrated into Ukraine's National Guard): Led by Andriy Biletsky. Pre-2014, Biletsky (linked to Patriot of Ukraine/Social National Assembly) made explicit white supremacist statements. In 2010, he reportedly said Ukraine's mission was to "lead the white races of the world in a final crusade… against Semite-led Untermenschen" (subhumans). He later denied or distanced from such remarks and toned down rhetoric post-2014. 
  
  Azov fought effectively against Russian-backed separatists in 2014–2015 (e.g., Mariupol). Their symbols (e.g., Wolfsangel) and early neo-Nazi ties drew scrutiny, but by the full-scale war, it had broadened, included diverse fighters, and focused on combat reputation over ideology. Russian media heavily amplified Azov as proof of "Ukrainian Nazism." 
  
  
• Right Sector (Pravyi Sektor): A coalition of ultranationalists led by Dmytro Yarosh. They played a visible role in Euromaidan (2013–2014) and sent fighters to Donbas. Yarosh stated Ukraine was "doomed to fight a war with the Moscow empire" and prepared for conflict with Russia (e.g., post-Georgia 2008 analogy: "If they stick their faces here... they'll get it in the teeth"). He distinguished the Kremlin from ordinary Russians but advocated "de-Russification." 
  
  Associate Oleksandr Muzychko (killed 2014) had a reputation for radicalism, including past claims involving violence against Russians/Jews (disputed context).

Common Rhetoric and Chants Post-2014

• Slurs and chants: "Москаляку на гілляку" ("Hang the Moskal on the branch") and variations like "москалів на ножі" ("Moskals to the knives") appeared in nationalist circles, football ultras, and protests. These echo historical Ukrainian nationalist hostility toward Russian dominance/empire but spiked with the 2014 conflict. reddit.com
• Volunteers and fighters in Donbas expressed desires to fight/kill invading or separatist forces. This is typical wartime enemy dehumanization (Russians called "orcs," "Moskali," etc., mirroring Russian "Ukronazis" propaganda).
• Broader context: Far-right groups were marginal politically (low election support) but had outsized visibility in volunteer battalions early in Donbas.

Important Context

These groups are real and held extreme views, rooted in historical Ukrainian nationalism (e.g., Bandera/OUN-UPA anti-Soviet/anti-Russian stances during WWII era). Post-2014, the Donbas fighting (thousands dead) radicalized rhetoric on both sides. Some early Azov/Right Sector members had neo-Nazi or white nationalist backgrounds; atrocities or abuses by individuals occurred (as in most wars).

• No mainstream evidence of official Ukrainian policy to "kill Russians" as ethnicity post-2014 (pre-full invasion).
• Azov and others integrated into state forces, broadened recruitment, and prioritized defense.
• Some Ukrainian far-right figures and fighters voiced intent to violently resist and kill Russian forces/separatists after 2014, using nationalist/dehumanizing language. 

sounds exactly like the Nazi elements Putin had as hired henchmen.  Why not mention them ever? 

PVW said:

nan said:

Famously, we had the murders in Odessa for which no one was prosecuted.

And strangely, such events have not continued. What is more plausible, that the events in Odessa were directed by the Ukrainian government which, for some reason, then stopped any further such events happening in all the years since, or that these events happened at a time when there was very little effective governance and that, once civil order was restored, we no longer saw such events happening?

nan said:

PVW said:

Are all of your examples from the active Russia-Ukraine conflict zone? It's a strange type of racial purist, who only is focused on an area with armed conflict but is strangely unconcerned with targeting all the undefended targets of their hatred in non-conflict zones.

Could you say that again in English?  Thanks. 

Nazis in Germany didn't only attack Jews caught up in the font lines, yet all your examples of supposed Nazi violence against Russian speakers is only in conflict zones. These are oddly polite Nazis, if their goal is really to kill Russian speakers. The fact that you can't point to attacks on Russian speakers in parts of Ukraine that aren't at war makes argues that the violence is really about the war with Russia, not any broad targeting of Russian speakers.

The murders in Odessa became the murders in the Donbass, which the western press ignored. 

As you are probably familiar with the law, you know that murder is illegal.  Even in a corrupt country like Ukraine, Nazis could not just go around shooting people in the streets all day, at least in western Ukraine. From what I remember reading, they would get themselves in charge of oversight in some towns and do some horrible things like taping people to poles, etc, 

The big deal with the Ukrainian Nazis as related to our concerns are the way they were used to help overthrow the government in 2014.  Ivan K. has detailed how they were snipers killing protesters who became martyrs. So, they helped create the chaos that lead to war. 

jamie said:

nan said:

Here is some information on Ukrainian Nazis.  You can see, contrary to what Nohero posted, that they do focus on and hate Russians. Also, I thought they called Russians "orcs" but that might have been from a Lord of the Rings Movie.  Here some other names are given. 

Far-right Ukrainian nationalist groups (often labeled "Nazis" in Russian narratives) expressed strong anti-Russian hostility after 2014, framed as resistance to invasion and separatism rather than blanket genocide calls. This occurred amid the Donbas war, where Russian-backed forces fought Ukrainian troops and volunteers. Their rhetoric included dehumanizing language, vows to fight "Muscovites" (a slur for Russians, "москалі"), and preparation for war with Russia. 

Also, this is from AI so they play down the influence as we hear on MOL. 

Key Groups and Figures

• Azov Battalion/Regiment (founded 2014, later integrated into Ukraine's National Guard): Led by Andriy Biletsky. Pre-2014, Biletsky (linked to Patriot of Ukraine/Social National Assembly) made explicit white supremacist statements. In 2010, he reportedly said Ukraine's mission was to "lead the white races of the world in a final crusade… against Semite-led Untermenschen" (subhumans). He later denied or distanced from such remarks and toned down rhetoric post-2014. 
  
  Azov fought effectively against Russian-backed separatists in 2014–2015 (e.g., Mariupol). Their symbols (e.g., Wolfsangel) and early neo-Nazi ties drew scrutiny, but by the full-scale war, it had broadened, included diverse fighters, and focused on combat reputation over ideology. Russian media heavily amplified Azov as proof of "Ukrainian Nazism." 
  
  
• Right Sector (Pravyi Sektor): A coalition of ultranationalists led by Dmytro Yarosh. They played a visible role in Euromaidan (2013–2014) and sent fighters to Donbas. Yarosh stated Ukraine was "doomed to fight a war with the Moscow empire" and prepared for conflict with Russia (e.g., post-Georgia 2008 analogy: "If they stick their faces here... they'll get it in the teeth"). He distinguished the Kremlin from ordinary Russians but advocated "de-Russification." 
  
  Associate Oleksandr Muzychko (killed 2014) had a reputation for radicalism, including past claims involving violence against Russians/Jews (disputed context).

Common Rhetoric and Chants Post-2014

• Slurs and chants: "Москаляку на гілляку" ("Hang the Moskal on the branch") and variations like "москалів на ножі" ("Moskals to the knives") appeared in nationalist circles, football ultras, and protests. These echo historical Ukrainian nationalist hostility toward Russian dominance/empire but spiked with the 2014 conflict. reddit.com
• Volunteers and fighters in Donbas expressed desires to fight/kill invading or separatist forces. This is typical wartime enemy dehumanization (Russians called "orcs," "Moskali," etc., mirroring Russian "Ukronazis" propaganda).
• Broader context: Far-right groups were marginal politically (low election support) but had outsized visibility in volunteer battalions early in Donbas.

Important Context

These groups are real and held extreme views, rooted in historical Ukrainian nationalism (e.g., Bandera/OUN-UPA anti-Soviet/anti-Russian stances during WWII era). Post-2014, the Donbas fighting (thousands dead) radicalized rhetoric on both sides. Some early Azov/Right Sector members had neo-Nazi or white nationalist backgrounds; atrocities or abuses by individuals occurred (as in most wars).

• No mainstream evidence of official Ukrainian policy to "kill Russians" as ethnicity post-2014 (pre-full invasion).
• Azov and others integrated into state forces, broadened recruitment, and prioritized defense.
• Some Ukrainian far-right figures and fighters voiced intent to violently resist and kill Russian forces/separatists after 2014, using nationalist/dehumanizing language. 

sounds exactly like the Nazi elements Putin had as hired henchmen.  Why not mention them ever? 

Because Nazis in Russia are not even a footnote. You keep posting the same guy with the same blurred tattoo and no one is even sure what that guy did or if he was really a Nazi. His viewpoints on life are not important.  He was just a hired gun.  The Ukrainian Nazis are like some kind of a cult. 

We could write a whole book on the Nazis in Ukraine and how they made the coup possible and how they went after the people in the Donbass to provoke the Russians. The Ukrainian Nazis are the kindling for the fire that became the war. They are a huge part of the story. 

nan said:

Because Nazis in Russia are not even a footnote. You keep posting the same guy with the same blurred tattoo and no one is even sure what that guy did or if he was really a Nazi.  

We could write a whole book on the Nazis in Ukraine and how they made the coup possible and how they went after the people in the Donbass to provoke the Russians. The Ukrainian Nazis are the kindling for the fire that became the war. They are a huge part of the story. 

OMG - what the F have the Ukrainian Nazis done the past 4 years?

Who is the leader

Post any of their speeches to the masses.

I could write a book on the Russian Nazis also - what does that prove?

nan said:

OK, I think it's important here to understand what Putin meant when he included "denazification" in his list of goals for the war. Jamie keeps focusing on this term literally without trying to comprehend how that fit in with his total list and what he really meant.  Putin did not invade just because he thought all Ukrainians were Nazis, as Jamie seems to want us to believe. It was more like Ukraine under the influence of the West imposed that mindset.

Let's look at some ideas, starting with - 

Richard Sakwa's new book, "The Russio-Ukrainian War Follies of Empire: https://a.co/d/0gsXWOM4 

Page 17 - 

"Putin's February 24 speech outlined two key aims--the "demilitarization" of Ukraine and its "denazification."  The goals echoed those of the Potsdam Conference in July 1945 regarding postwar Nazi Germany. The imprecision of these terms has been ridiculed, yet the formulation of war aims in this way reflected long-standing Russian concerns.  Demilitarization addressed the advance of a hostile military alliance to Russia's boarders, ultimately through for all accession to NATO but more immediately through ad hoc military support for Ukraine. This was perceived as a security threat of the first order.  As for "denazification," the term is undoubtedly provocative and misleading, yet it reflects the genuine concerns provoked by the coming to power of a militant national populist regime through a coercive regime-change operation in February 2014. The revolution imposed a Galician model of state development on the country, provoking a rebellion in the Donbass and signalling the intensification of a second cold war that would be no less pervasive and minacious than the first. This finally spilled over into a brutal war. Domestic conflict was internationalized, turning into a proxy war between Russia and the West. The Political West mobilized to the highest degree since 1945 against an erstwhile ally, the much-delayed Operation Unthinkable--a war of the Allies against an exhausted Soviet Union--that British prime minister Winston Churchill had floated at the end of World War II. . ." 

kremlin talking points 101

1. It legitimizes “demilitarization” as defensive

“Demilitarization addressed the advance of a hostile military alliance to Russia’s borders…”

This adopts Russia’s justification that NATO expansion forced Moscow’s hand. What it omits:

Ukraine was invaded by Russia, not NATO. Ukraine sought NATO/EU ties largely because Russia had already violated Ukrainian sovereignty in Crimea and Donbas in 2014.

A neutral version would say:

Russia claimed NATO-Ukraine cooperation threatened its security, while Ukraine and Western states argued Ukraine had the sovereign right to choose its alliances.

2. It compares Ukraine to Nazi Germany

“The goals echoed those of the Potsdam Conference… regarding postwar Nazi Germany.”

This is a huge red flag.

It puts modern Ukraine in the same conceptual category as Nazi Germany, which helps justify invasion, occupation, regime change, and forced “re-education.”

That is classic Kremlin propaganda: Ukraine = Nazi Germany 2.0.

3. It softens “denazification”

“The term is undoubtedly provocative and misleading, yet it reflects genuine concerns…”

This is a laundering move.

The author admits the term is misleading, but then says it reflects “genuine concerns,” giving Russia’s false “Nazi Ukraine” narrative a respectable intellectual wrapper.

The real issue: far-right elements existed in Ukraine, but they did not control the state, elections, army, or society.

4. It calls 2014 a “coercive regime-change operation”

“coming to power… through a coercive regime-change operation in February 2014.”

This is Kremlin framing of the Maidan revolution.

It portrays Ukrainians as manipulated or overthrown by outside forces, rather than acknowledging that millions protested against Yanukovych after he abandoned the EU agreement and used violence against demonstrators.

It also ignores that Ukraine held elections afterward.

5. “Galician model” is coded anti-Ukrainian framing

“The revolution imposed a Galician model of state development…”

This suggests western Ukrainian nationalism was forced onto the whole country. That mirrors Russian narratives that Ukraine’s national identity is artificial, extremist, and imposed by western Ukraine.

It’s a way of saying: “real Ukraine was hijacked by nationalist radicals.”

6. It blames Ukraine for Donbas

“…provoking a rebellion in the Donbass…”

This makes the Donbas war sound like a spontaneous local uprising.

It omits Russia’s decisive role: weapons, fighters, intelligence, leadership, financing, and eventually direct military intervention.

A more accurate phrase would be:

Russia-backed separatist movements emerged in Donbas after 2014, with local support in some areas but substantial Russian involvement.

7. It turns Russia’s invasion into a “proxy war”

“Domestic conflict was internationalized, turning into a proxy war between Russia and the West.”

This minimizes Ukrainian agency.

Ukraine becomes just the battlefield for Russia vs. the West, instead of a sovereign country defending itself from invasion.

That is one of the Kremlin’s most important narratives.

8. “Operation Unthinkable” is conspiratorial framing

“the much-delayed Operation Unthinkable…”

This implies the West has secretly wanted war with Russia since 1945 and Ukraine is just the latest stage.

That is not serious analysis; it is historical insinuation used to make Russia look like the long-term victim of Western aggression.

Overall verdict

This is high-grade Kremlin-adjacent propaganda, maybe 8.5/10.

It works by:

• using academic language,
• treating Russian claims as legitimate,
• portraying Ukraine as extremist and externally controlled,
• minimizing Russia’s agency,
• blaming NATO/the West for escalation,
• and reframing invasion as defensive necessity.

The biggest tell is this: Russia’s invasion disappears as the central cause of the war. Instead, the war is blamed on NATO, Maidan, Ukrainian nationalism, and Western hostility.