Hamas and Israel

Based on reports, Hamas launched a surprise attack on Israel overnight. There are already hundreds of people dead.  Based on Netanyahu's ultra right wing politics and Hamas's history, this is going to end very badly for those living in the Gaza Strip.

https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-gaza-hamas-rockets-airstrikes-tel-aviv-11fb98655c256d54ecb5329284fc37d2

JERUSALEM (AP) — Hamas militants fired thousands of rockets and sent dozens of fighters into Israeli towns near the Gaza Strip in an unprecedented surprise early morning attack during a major Jewish holiday Saturday, killing dozens and stunning the country. Israel said it is now at war with Hamas and launched airstrikes in Gaza, vowing to inflict an “unprecedented price.”

Hours after the incursion began, Israeli troops were still fighting Hamas gunmen in 22 locations near the Gaza Strip, including towns and other communities, army spokesman Daniel Hagari said — a startling sign of the breadth of the assault.

Israel’s national rescue service said at least 100 people were killed and hundreds wounded, making it the deadliest attack in Israel in years. An unknown number of Israeli soldiers and civilians were also seized and taken into Gaza, an enormously sensitive issue for Israel. Hagari said militants were holding hostages in standoffs in two towns, Beeri and Ofakim, which is 15 miles (24 kilometers) from the Gaza border.

At least 198 people in the Gaza Strip have been killed and at least 1,610 wounded in Israel’s retaliation, the Palestinian Health Ministry said. Airstrikes in the evening flattened a 14-story residential tower that also holds Hamas offices in central Gaza City. Israeli fired a warning just before, and the number of casualties was not immediately known.

yahooyahoo said:

Based on Netanyahu's ultra right wing politics and Hamas's history, this is going to end very badly for those living in the Gaza Strip.

I would imagine the outcome of the fighting isn't going to be affected by the politics of the government.

On the other hand, it will make a big difference in how Israel responds to the political aftermath of the fighting.

I'm kind of tired of so many people referring to this as Israel's 9/11. What does that even mean?

drummerboy said:

I'm kind of tired of so many people referring to this as Israel's 9/11. What does that even mean?

Their largest terrorist attack in history. And they’re riled up and united just like America was after 9/11. I can see the similarities. 

Deafening silence from local "peace activist".

nohero said:

Deafening silence from local "peace activist".

Well, I am sure he wants to say Hamas was justified, but their conduct of the war makes it a bit difficult to do that.

Still, in the Levant, as with so many other places, some path to peaceful coexistence had better be found or we will have the peace of the grave.  Weapons become more and more terrible but human thinking hasn't changed at the same rate.

Now Hamas warns they will kill a hostage in response to every strike. They have children, grandmothers. I've watched videos taken during the music festival as the attack occurred.

I've been stunned for days.

Aside from the poor Israelis, what will the U.S. be doing once they identify any Americans capture. Not to mention the 11 dead.

I've been watching channel i24 as well as MSNBC and CNN. 

I saw briefly Cory Booker who was attending a summit when the assault began.

So sad.

Morganna said:

Now Hamas warns they will kill a hostage in response to every strike. They have children, grandmothers. I've watched videos taken during the music festival as the attack occurred.

I've been stunned for days.

Aside from the poor Israelis, what will the U.S. be doing once they identify any Americans capture. Not to mention the 11 dead.

I've been watching channel i24 as well as MSNBC and CNN. 

I saw briefly Cory Booker who was attending a summit when the assault began.

So sad.

It’s a terrorist attack, period. To kidnap children and older people is a criminal offense. If hamas had attacked the military maybe so many people wouldn’t be so angered by this event, but it is time now to settle this issue once and for all. All out war now, there’s been enough talking. 
Cory Booker was out jogging when the attack happened, he was taken to a bomb shelter with a bunch of other Americans. He said he would never forget that experience of seeing the terror in the eyes of the people. 
I don’t really care what anyone thinks of Israel, they have a right to defend themselves. End of story. Kill out hamas wherever they may be. Enough!

Jaytee said:

It’s a terrorist attack, period. To kidnap children and older people is a criminal offense. If hamas had attacked the military maybe so many people wouldn’t be so angered by this event, but it is time now to settle this issue once and for all. All out war now, there’s been enough talking. 
Cory Booker was out jogging when the attack happened, he was taken to a bomb shelter with a bunch of other Americans. He said he would never forget that experience of seeing the terror in the eyes of the people. 
I don’t really care what anyone thinks of Israel, they have a right to defend themselves. End of story. Kill out hamas wherever they may be. Enough!

The problem is that Gaza is very densely populated -- 2 million people in an area about twice the size of Washington, DC. A lot more people are going to die before this is over, and at the end of it will anyone be safer or more secure?

I don't know what the answer is. My current job has a significant number of coworkers in Israel. It's absolutely awful what's happening. Most are in Tel Aviv, which is still getting some rocket attacks and where they can hear explosions -- Israel is not a large country, and even though Gaza is in the south it's not a far drive to Tel Aviv. This was a terrorist attack, and Israel absolutely must defend itself. But it's happening in a context of long-term, unsupportable injustice, and I fear there's just more of the same, for all the people involved, going forward. I can only hope that Israel is able to re-establish security over its territory, and that somehow after this people in Israel, the West Bank, and Gaza (with most, but not all, of the burden on Israel) can figure out some alternative to the clearly unsustainable path they've been on for far too long.

I was thinking of a short documentary that I showed my students years ago To Die in Jerusalem.

It is about an Israeli mother's attempt to speak with the mother of the young female suicide bomber who killed her daughter.in the explosion.

A close friend’s Australian cousin is among the kidnapped. 
Two of my Tel Aviv cousins (in their late 20s) are reservists; one has been recalled, the other is a paramedic anyway and has been flat out since the whole nightmare began. 
Their father just had open-heart surgery and can barely move, wonderful conditions for rehab. 

nohero said:

Deafening silence from local "peace activist".

Might be waiting to see how the MSM reports on it and Biden's reaction - then will pick apart how wrong they are.

I don't understand how anyone can unquestioningly support Israel's response when both sides are truly awful. (Not the people - the leadership)

Hamas is awful.

Netanyahu is awful.

Hamas's attack was awful.

Tightening the siege on Gaza, cutting off water,food and electricity, is awful.

There are simply no good guys here.

"Not the people - the leadership"

When we are talking about the Hamas attacks this weekend, they ARE the bad guy. 260 young people killed at a music festival, etc etc. Hamas "leadership" decided to attack "the people" and that is unequivocally terrible. 

Yes, Hamas is terrible, but they don't represent the people who live in Gaza.  They saw incremental steps towards peace occuring and it didn't fit their agenda, so they will sacrifice every living soul in Gaza to perpetuate the hatred.  I understand everyone, including myself, being shocked and horrified at the massacre of Israelies, but I am not hearing anyone speak up for the shocking massacre of civilians in Gaza that is occurring now in retaliation.  It is exactly the response that Hamas wanted.  No one in an Arab state whom is looking at the Western response to this will ever trust us again.

"It is exactly the response that Hamas wanted."

Honest question, what do you think Israel's response should be?

Hamas fighters wore uniforms with body cameras to attack Israel on Saturday. Did they all send their uniforms to the cleaners after they went back into Gaza? Cause I don’t see any of them being killed now. It’s all civilians… who I think were the majority who voted for Hamas. They know that they can’t win a war with Israel, so they use civilians to vote for them and hide behind. Cowards, who see every single Israeli or Jew for that matter as a target. They will not stop until every last Jew is dead. It’s something some people have a hard time believing. I don’t. As for any of them trusting us… they love our money and trust it very much.

Jaytee said:

Hamas fighters wore uniforms with body cameras to attack Israel on Saturday. Did they all send their uniforms to the cleaners after they went back into Gaza? Cause I don’t see any of them being killed now. It’s all civilians… who I think were the majority who voted for Hamas. They know that they can’t win a war with Israel, so they use civilians to vote for them and hide behind. Cowards, who see every single Israeli or Jew for that matter as a target. They will not stop until every last Jew is dead. It’s something some people have a hard time believing. I don’t. As for any of them trusting us… they love our money and trust it very much.

there hasn't been an election since 2006 apparently, so trying to blame this on the Gaza people for voting for Hamas is not really accurate.

berkeley said:

"It is exactly the response that Hamas wanted."

Honest question, what do you think Israel's response should be?

Increase troop levels at the border with Gaza, for security, and negotiate for the return of hostages, as a first step.

Not bomb and invade.

Asking what Israel's response should be after being brutally attacked begs the question.

OTOH, the fact that Israel is so brutal to Gaza and Palestinians in general every other day of the year never seems to come up much.

Jaytee said:

Hamas fighters wore uniforms with body cameras to attack Israel on Saturday. Did they all send their uniforms to the cleaners after they went back into Gaza? Cause I don’t see any of them being killed now. It’s all civilians… who I think were the majority who voted for Hamas. They know that they can’t win a war with Israel, so they use civilians to vote for them and hide behind. Cowards, who see every single Israeli or Jew for that matter as a target. They will not stop until every last Jew is dead. It’s something some people have a hard time believing. I don’t. As for any of them trusting us… they love our money and trust it very much.

As you say they are cowards and I would not be surprised if they ditched those uniforms quickly. They are probably hiding among the civilians with their captives. I imagine they suspect that there will be teams of undercover Israelis and Americans circulating in Gaza hunting for captives.

I don't know how you negotiate with Hamas. If they had taken even one hostage they would have been in a position to negotiate but instead their mission in life appears to be to spread terror and hate. Taking children and grandmothers, videotaping their brutality.

Any money exchanged we are always told, will promote the idea that it puts a price on the head of yet more civilians.

I heard someone being interviewed say,that she heard the terrorist over a phone, yell out the name of a former prisoner, they had taken, and exchanged for 1,000 prisoners. Not sure if this is completely accurate, few details were given. It was an interview by Jose Diaz Belart.

Channel i24 coming out of Israel is a good station to watch to get local perspective.

nohero said:

berkeley said:

"It is exactly the response that Hamas wanted."

Honest question, what do you think Israel's response should be?

Increase troop levels at the border with Gaza, for security, and negotiate for the return of hostages, as a first step.

Not bomb and invade.

cutting off food, water and electricity to the civilian population is pretty evil too.

This Hamas attack was/is pretty evil and the only response to the attack is to bomb and invade I'm afraid. 

But bigger-picture it's a lot more complicated than the shorthand MSM narrative of Hamas evil, Israel virtuous.

If I was a 20-something unemployed Palestinian in Gaza, living in poverty with little/no hope for the future, and my daily life is a series of humiliations at the hands of (who they see as) brutal, unlawful occupiers, yeah I'd probably have some pretty massive rage built up too. And being that there's no chance of ever fighting the Israelis on a level playing field, ie joining the army and fighting them with tanks and missiles and proper equipment, the only option is to find some opportunity, any opportunity, to fight dirty and subhuman, like they did in this attack.

I'm not excusing it at all. But I can understand where it comes from. I don't think the Hamas fighters who murdered innocent civilians were born evil. But they were made evil.  

And I don't know what the answer is. It's been lather/rinse/repeat over there for my entire lifetime and it probably will be until I check out.  

cramer said:

do you have a point?

Smedley said:

This Hamas attack was/is pretty evil and the only response to the attack is to bomb and invade I'm afraid. 

But bigger-picture it's a lot more complicated than the shorthand MSM narrative of Hamas evil, Israel virtuous.

If I was a 20-something unemployed Palestinian in Gaza, living in poverty with little/no hope for the future, and my daily life is a series of humiliations at the hands of (who they see as) brutal, unlawful occupiers, yeah I'd probably have some pretty massive rage built up too. And being that there's no chance of ever fighting the Israelis on a level playing field, ie joining the army and fighting them with tanks and missiles and proper equipment, the only option is to find some opportunity, any opportunity, to fight dirty and subhuman, like they did in this attack.

I'm not excusing it at all. But I can understand where it comes from. I don't think the Hamas fighters who murdered innocent civilians were born evil. But they were made evil.  

And I don't know what the answer is. It's been lather/rinse/repeat over there for my entire lifetime and it probably will be until I check out.  

the planets must be in alignment or something because I agree with this.

Fact is they voted for the Hamas. It’s not like they didn’t know what Hamas is all about. Could be 49 years ago, Hamas is in charge of their future. I wonder what people think Israel should do after close to 1,000 civilians are killed in one day… throw out the welcome mat? Maybe it’s time to just go full out and see what happens when the dust settles. If your goal in life is to eradicate an entire race of people then be prepared for the inevitable consequences.