Patio Contract Fail

I have a mason putting a patio in my backyard. He measured estimated it out and wrote a contract that we signed. He's started work on the stairs from the house, having done two days.

Today he called me and tells me that due to the backyard slope, a retaining wall is needed, which was not in the estimate. He coming over tomorrow telling me the price. The end of the of the patio is about 6” to 1' foot higher than the surrounding soil.

We paid him half with the other half due at completion.

My options seem to be to allow this wall and pay for it. Tell him to forget about the patio but allow him the complete the stairs or just simply drop the whole thing since he's fulfilling the contract.

I told him he should have figured this out when he surveyed the land and wrote the contract.

If I tell him to drop it, he owes me money because the stairs alone are not ½ of the cost of the total contract which is patio and stairs. What are the chances
of getting money back from him if he refuses?

Anyone have suggestions on the best way to handle this?

What does the contract say?

It says:

Again:

Sounds very frustrating.

Hmm... might this be better dealt with by making a deck over the slope, rather than a patio that needs to be built up?

Perhaps get another mason's estimate/thoughts?

he absolutely should have known about this up front!

oots

Tough one. I agree that next steps may be to get another mason's input if you can, because the fix may be easier than you think. Did you need a permit for the work? Maybe have the town take a look?

give him the benefit of the doubt until you have all of the facts- when they were excavating they may have found your base soil wasnt as stable as they thought or other otherwise. While they do this type of work everyday sometimes the unforseen happens.

If he proposes a reasonable cost for the additional work accept its just part of construction. If its excessive then negotiate or pay for stairs only but then it means you have to pull in a second guy who is bidding on a half done project..........

At only 6" to 12", you might consider additional minor excavation, grading, and sod if that is possible given your site

new207040 said:
If he proposes a reasonable cost for the additional work accept its just part of construction. If its excessive then negotiate or pay for stairs only but then it means you have to pull in a second guy who is bidding on a half done project..........

I think I agree with this. Sorry you are going through this. Often they don't know what they are really dealing with until the work is underway. We had a simple (hah) step replacement turn into renovations of our entire (termite-damaged/water-damaged) foyer a few years back. But it could be worth having another contractor take a look and give you their opinion on the retaining wall situation.

Failing to measure the slope correctly is not the same as finding something unexpected when excavating. Most of these contractors don't do a proper survey. I had 2 tell me that my plan didn't "look right" and they proposed something different. The 3rd measured the area, and admitted he was surprised that the plan was correct. I hired him.

Yes, getting the slope wrong (or ignoring it altogether) is pretty basic. But since the work is under way, I think I would get the estimate from the existing contractor for the "additional" work, then ask another contractor how much they would charge for the remainder of the work that needs to be done, and do some arithmetic to see whether it's worth jumping to someone new. Then negotiate some money back from the first contractor if possible.

If he refuses to give any money back, I'm not sure what a good next step would be. Small claims court is notoriously unhelpful, sad to say. But the Better Business Bureau might find it interesting, and the contractor might not want to hear you are willing to speak to the BBB...

Just spitballing here. It's a painful situation without an easy remedy.

Thanks for all the comments.

It does look like the best option is to get options from other contractors. A deck over the slope would also work provided we got our money back. But we'd prefer a patio.

I heard that small claims courts are usually not helpful. If even if there is a judgment, collecting can be very difficult. Which is the main reason many sellers don't send goods that are paid with check until after the check clears.

Yes, I mentioned small claims court only because it is something people usually bring up, although I'm not really sure why it still exists. I don't think I know anyone who has succeeded in a small claim!

To clarify, he's highly recommended and done front door patio and steps work for us previously. The quality seems excellent and the one issue we had was resolved very quickly.

So, I'm surprised. As stated above with which I agree, figuring out the slope should be basic to someone who's been doing this for 30 years.

In that case, I might cut them a little more slack than usual. Try to work it through with him; it might be easier than you think.

the retaining wall should be extra it wasn't included in his contract.... walking a property it would be hard to see a 6" to 12" slope over 30' unless he ran a level line during the estimate.

Isn't that the point of an estimate and is it really that hard to notice the slope if you are looking at the land for a patio? The contractor had the chance to review the job site and create a quote.

My mason really screwed up his patio quote but to his credit, he ate the extra cost (his logic was pretty simple - he thought it would be cheaper in the end to do it right than have to fix it in a year). He more than made it back with all the other work I give him - yeah the small quotes are often $50 to $100 higher than market but I now know that he will do the job correctly.

terminator3 said:
the retaining wall should be extra it wasn't included in his contract.... walking a property it would be hard to see a 6" to 12" slope over 30' unless he ran a level line during the estimate.

terminator3 said:
the retaining wall should be extra it wasn't included in his contract.... walking a property it would be hard to see a 6" to 12" slope over 30' unless he ran a level line during the estimate.

After he removed some of the soil to level for the patio, then he brought his transit and measured whereupon he discovered a wall was needed.

But as bog said, the whole point is to figure these things out as part of the estimate.

My knowledge of these things is very limited but 6-12" seems rather small for a retaining wall. Couldn't they try regrading that area?

Te permits, when we did our patio, we checked and were told no permit was required (but would have needed one for a deck.)

sac said:
Re permits, when we did our patio, we checked and were told no permit was required (but would have needed one for a deck.)

That has always been my understanding; I believe it's because a deck is usually attached to the house, although why that should matter is beyond me.

I think I would ask another contractor for a bid to complete the project and ask them what they would have charged for the whole shebang. It's disappointing to have to swallow additional costs, but the thing is... if he had found the need for a retaining wall when he did his estimate, the amount he quoted would have been higher, right?

BG9 said:

terminator3 said:
the retaining wall should be extra it wasn't included in his contract.... walking a property it would be hard to see a 6" to 12" slope over 30' unless he ran a level line during the estimate.

After he removed some of the soil to level for the patio, then he brought his transit and measured whereupon he discovered a wall was needed.
But as bog said, the whole point is to figure these things out as part of the estimate.

again level not so easy to see with grass and other things in place, you would need to clear out some stuff dug out some dirt used a transit.... not stuff you get for a free estimate... maybe if you paid for the estimate then you would have gotten a more accurate number

Doesn't sound like it would be a large wall at all, perhaps a couple courses of pavers. Something like that would not typically need a permit. Not sure, though, about how deep (footers?) it needs to go.

/p

sac said:
Te permits, when we did our patio, we checked and were told no permit was required (but would have needed one for a deck.)

I was told that. Its not fixed to the house, its like just placing a lot of bricks in the backyard. I'm not sure about the new steps.

peteglider said:
Doesn't sound like it would be a large wall at all, perhaps a couple courses of pavers. Something like that would not typically need a permit. Not sure, though, about how deep (footers?) it needs to go.
/p

That's what I'm thinking.

terminator3 said:

BG9 said:

terminator3 said:
the retaining wall should be extra it wasn't included in his contract.... walking a property it would be hard to see a 6" to 12" slope over 30' unless he ran a level line during the estimate.

After he removed some of the soil to level for the patio, then he brought his transit and measured whereupon he discovered a wall was needed.
But as bog said, the whole point is to figure these things out as part of the estimate.

again level not so easy to see with grass and other things in place, you would need to clear out some stuff dug out some dirt used a transit.... not stuff you get for a free estimate... maybe if you paid for the estimate then you would have gotten a more accurate number

You make a good point. I'll give him some leeway, benefit of doubt, because of previous work.

terminator3 said:

BG9 said:

terminator3 said:
the retaining wall should be extra it wasn't included in his contract.... walking a property it would be hard to see a 6" to 12" slope over 30' unless he ran a level line during the estimate.

After he removed some of the soil to level for the patio, then he brought his transit and measured whereupon he discovered a wall was needed.
But as bog said, the whole point is to figure these things out as part of the estimate.

again level not so easy to see with grass and other things in place, you would need to clear out some stuff dug out some dirt used a transit.... not stuff you get for a free estimate... maybe if you paid for the estimate then you would have gotten a more accurate number

It takes a couple of minutes with a level to figure out if there's a height difference from one side of the patio to the other. It's not rocket science and there is no need to dig anything out. I know because I do this sort of survey from time to time in my job as a geologist.

The steps probably would need a permit. We needed one when we replaced our front steps, in particular because they required a new foundation, which in turn required an inspection. Actually, IIRC, we needed two inspections: One for the foundation to make sure it was the right depth and that it would be OK to pour around the pipe that brought natural gas into the house, and another to make sure the steps were an appropriate height/steepness and didn't require a handrail.