Make China Great Again!

From the article:

President Trump wrote on Twitter on Sunday that he was working with his Chinese counterpart, Xi Jinping, to prevent the collapse of the Chinese electronics giant ZTE, which shut down major operations after being sanctioned by the United States Department of Commerce last month. “Too many jobs in China lost,” Mr. Trump wrote. “Commerce Department has been instructed to get it done!”

(Please include some context when starting a new discussion - not only a link)

It's just plain odd that Trump wants to help.



jamie said:
From the article:


President Trump wrote on Twitter on Sunday that he was working with his Chinese counterpart, Xi Jinping, to prevent the collapse of the Chinese electronics giant ZTE, which shut down major operations after being sanctioned by the United States Department of Commerce last month. “Too many jobs in China lost,” Mr. Trump wrote. “Commerce Department has been instructed to get it done!”
(Please include some context when starting a new discussion - not only a link)
It's just plain odd that Trump wants to help.


 That's from The Onion, correct?


No, but I like this one from NYer...

Trump Considering Pulling U.S. Out of Constitution

WASHINGTON (The Borowitz Report)—Calling it “maybe the worst deal ever,” Donald J. Trump said on Wednesday that he is considering pulling the United States out of the United States Constitution.

“I’ve seen a lot of bad deals in my life, but this Constitution is a total mess,” he said. “We need to tear it up and start over.”

Trump was scathing in his remarks about the two-hundred-and-twenty-nine-year-old document, singling out for special scorn its insistence on three branches of government. “The branches thing is maybe the worst part of this deal,” he said. “The first thing we do when we pull out of the Constitution is get rid of two of those branches.”

He also called the First Amendment “something that really has to go.”

“No one in his right mind would put something like that in a Constitution,” he said. “Russia doesn’t have it. North Korea doesn’t have it. All the best countries don’t have it.”

He stopped short of accusing his predecessor, Barack Obama, of writing the United States Constitution, but said, “He’s working hard behind the scenes trying to save it, because he knows that the Constitution is very, very bad for me.”

Vowing to replace the Constitution with “a new, much, much better Constitution,” he acknowledged that there might be some elements of the original document worth salvaging. “We’re going to keep the Second Amendment,” he said, “and definitely the Fifth.”

  • Andy Borowitz is the New York Times best-selling author of “The 50 Funniest American Writers,” and a comedian who has written for The New Yorkersince 1998. He writes the Borowitz Report, a satirical column on the news, for newyorker.com.

jamie said:
(Please include some context when starting a new discussion - not only a link)

I am struggling to even understand the context myself. Do you think someone finally hacked his Twitter account? That's the most plausible explanation I can think of.


jamie said:
From the article:


President Trump wrote on Twitter on Sunday that he was working with his Chinese counterpart, Xi Jinping, to prevent the collapse of the Chinese electronics giant ZTE, which shut down major operations after being sanctioned by the United States Department of Commerce last month. “Too many jobs in China lost,” Mr. Trump wrote. “Commerce Department has been instructed to get it done!”
(Please include some context when starting a new discussion - not only a link)
It's just plain odd that Trump wants to help.


The Chinese govt may now smooth the Trump's organization hotel expansion. 


I don’t see how this is a bad thing. Seems to me Trump is working to negotiate some stuff and this is him showing a willingness to give some ground. Unless I’m missing something this is the kind of pragmatism that Trump can be good at. 

Jim Cramer, who I highly respect and consider pretty much apolitical, said  

“A spectacular tweet by @realDonaldTrump about saving ZTE, is a major step toward trade accommodation and could lead to a much larger agreement.”

But of course this is MOL, where whatever Trump does automatically gets panned.


Bank of China pays $2 million a year to lease space in Trump Tower.   Did Cramer mention that?


Smedley said:
I don’t see how this is a bad thing. Seems to me Trump is working to negotiate some stuff and this is him showing a willingness to give some ground. 

If he gave ground on ZTE, what did he get in return?



But of course this is MOL, where whatever Trump does automatically gets panned.

Yes, you are right, this is MOL, and we are Liberals and we hate Trump. What are you doing here Why don't you go post on Fox News online?


Smedley said:
I don’t see how this is a bad thing. Seems to me Trump is working to negotiate some stuff and this is him showing a willingness to give some ground. Unless I’m missing something this is the kind of pragmatism that Trump can be good at. 
Jim Cramer, who I highly respect and consider pretty much apolitical, said  
“A spectacular tweet by @realDonaldTrump about saving ZTE, is a major step toward trade accommodation and could lead to a much larger agreement.”

But of course this is MOL, where whatever Trump does automatically gets panned.

The fact that you highly respect Cramer is pretty much all we need to know to evaluate the rest of your post.

Do you know why ZTE was being sanctioned? Do you think it's a good move for Trump to just undercut his State Department like this? Do you think that maybe this indicates to the rest of the world that the US has become amateur hour?


dave23 said:


Smedley said:
I don’t see how this is a bad thing. Seems to me Trump is working to negotiate some stuff and this is him showing a willingness to give some ground. 
If he gave ground on ZTE, what did he get in return?

 For starters it seems like China is reconsidering its opposition to Qualcomm's proposed acquisition of (CORRECTED TO) a Dutch company that has operations in China.  


gerritn said:



But of course this is MOL, where whatever Trump does automatically gets panned.
Yes, you are right, this is MOL, and we are Liberals and we hate Trump. What are you doing here Why don't you go post on Fox News online?

 For background, I consider myself middle-of-the-road politically. I (held my nose and) voted for Hillary in 2016, and I voted for Obama twice. So hardly a Fox News person.

As to your reply, at least you're upfront about your political views. But, I will say this type of intolerance and close-mindedness regarding other views isn't helping the liberal cause these days, and it may well help Trump win re-election.  


I predict a Trump Tower or two coming to China soon.


Smedley said:


dave23 said:

Smedley said:
I don’t see how this is a bad thing. Seems to me Trump is working to negotiate some stuff and this is him showing a willingness to give some ground. 
If he gave ground on ZTE, what did he get in return?
 For starters it seems like China is reconsidering its opposition to Qualcomm's proposed acquisition of a Chinese company.   


It's a Dutch company that has operations in China.



Smedley said:


gerritn said:


But of course this is MOL, where whatever Trump does automatically gets panned.
Yes, you are right, this is MOL, and we are Liberals and we hate Trump. What are you doing here Why don't you go post on Fox News online?
 For background, I consider myself middle-of-the-road politically. I (held my nose and) voted for Hillary in 2016, and I voted for Obama twice. So hardly a Fox News person.
As to your reply, at least you're upfront about your political views. But, I will say this type of intolerance and close-mindedness regarding other views isn't helping the liberal cause these days, and it may well help Trump win re-election.  

 The argument "this is MOL, where whatever Trump does automatically gets panned" suggests that there isn't a reason for "panning" something Trump did, other than that he did it.  Instead of that general statement, you could indicate which "panning" isn't based on substantive fact and considered opinion.  Absent that, your blanket criticism suggests an "intolerance and close-mindedness regarding other views".


Smedley said:


gerritn said:


But of course this is MOL, where whatever Trump does automatically gets panned.
Yes, you are right, this is MOL, and we are Liberals and we hate Trump. What are you doing here Why don't you go post on Fox News online?
 For background, I consider myself middle-of-the-road politically. I (held my nose and) voted for Hillary in 2016, and I voted for Obama twice. So hardly a Fox News person.
As to your reply, at least you're upfront about your political views. But, I will say this type of intolerance and close-mindedness regarding other views isn't helping the liberal cause these days, and it may well help Trump win re-election.  

 it's not being close-minded.  It's not being a sap.  First of all, Trump says a whole lot of stuff.  It's just words to him.  Just because he tweets or says something, it doesn't mean he'll actually do it.  And secondly, Trump has a decades-long history of mostly doing things because they benefit Trump.  Being suspicious of Trump's motives when he does something unexpected isn't being close-minded.  It's being smart.  The people who aren't suspicious of Trump have historically been the ones who've lost their shirts dealing with him.  In other words, suckers.


drummerboy said:


Smedley said:
I don’t see how this is a bad thing. Seems to me Trump is working to negotiate some stuff and this is him showing a willingness to give some ground. Unless I’m missing something this is the kind of pragmatism that Trump can be good at. 
Jim Cramer, who I highly respect and consider pretty much apolitical, said  
“A spectacular tweet by @realDonaldTrump about saving ZTE, is a major step toward trade accommodation and could lead to a much larger agreement.”

But of course this is MOL, where whatever Trump does automatically gets panned.
The fact that you highly respect Cramer is pretty much all we need to know to evaluate the rest of your post.
Do you know why ZTE was being sanctioned? Do you think it's a good move for Trump to just undercut his State Department like this? Do you think that maybe this indicates to the rest of the world that the US has become amateur hour?

 Yes I know the story. I believe it doesn't have to be a binary outcome here, i.e. either ZTE closes up shop OR it continues to operate in violation of trade laws. There can be a middle ground where ZTE cleans up its act. Presumably that's what Trump is looking for. 

Out of curiosity, what's your problem with Cramer?   


ml1 said:


Smedley said:

gerritn said:


But of course this is MOL, where whatever Trump does automatically gets panned.
Yes, you are right, this is MOL, and we are Liberals and we hate Trump. What are you doing here Why don't you go post on Fox News online?
 For background, I consider myself middle-of-the-road politically. I (held my nose and) voted for Hillary in 2016, and I voted for Obama twice. So hardly a Fox News person.
As to your reply, at least you're upfront about your political views. But, I will say this type of intolerance and close-mindedness regarding other views isn't helping the liberal cause these days, and it may well help Trump win re-election.  
 it's not being close-minded.  It's not being a sap.  First of all, Trump says a whole lot of stuff.  It's just words to him.  Just because he tweets or says something, it doesn't mean he'll actually do it.  And secondly, Trump has a decades-long history of mostly doing things because they benefit Trump.  Being suspicious of Trump's motives when he does something unexpected isn't being close-minded.  It's being smart.  The people who aren't suspicious of Trump have historically been the ones who've lost their shirts dealing with him.  In other words, suckers.

 Saying "this is MOL, and we are Liberals and we hate Trump. What are you doing here Why don't you go post on Fox News online?"

Is not being close-minded?


Smedley said:

Saying "this is MOL, and we are Liberals and we hate Trump. What are you doing here Why don't you go post on Fox News online?"

Is not being close-minded?

 I thought it was being satirical responding to your generalization.


nohero said:


Smedley said:Saying "this is MOL, and we are Liberals and we hate Trump. What are you doing here Why don't you go post on Fox News online?"

Is not being close-minded?
 I thought it was being satirical responding to your generalization.

 ^this

Personally, I'm getting really tired of the accusations of close-mindedness regarding Trump.  Trump has been a public figure for 5 decades.  He has shown himself repeatedly to be dishonest, misogynistic, bigoted, ignorant, and incompetent.  It's not close-minded to be very suspicious that he's going to suddenly turn himself around and become honest, competent and virtuous.  In my mind, anyone whose mind doesn't immediately go to suspicion regarding Trump is being exactly what I indicated above -- a sucker.


nohero said:


Smedley said:Saying "this is MOL, and we are Liberals and we hate Trump. What are you doing here Why don't you go post on Fox News online?"

Is not being close-minded?
 I thought it was being satirical responding to your generalization.

 I guess that's possible but it wasn't how I read it. 


when someone tells me we need to trust that Trump is doing the right thing, and doing it competently, for the right reasons, and I need to keep my mind open to that possibility, I'm going to just start responding with this.


Smedley said:


dave23 said:



Smedley said:
I don’t see how this is a bad thing. Seems to me Trump is working to negotiate some stuff and this is him showing a willingness to give some ground. 
If he gave ground on ZTE, what did he get in return?
 For starters it seems like China is reconsidering its opposition to Qualcomm's proposed acquisition of (CORRECTED TO) a Dutch company that has operations in China.  

 "Seems to be reconsidering" is a far cry from the POTUS suddenly announcing (and undermining his Commerce Dept) on Twitter that the the US needs to save ZTE (ignoring the numerous concerns about ZTE). 

Since when does a president directly intervene in international law enforcement and trade disputes with specific foreign companies?

And, no, I won't be giving Trump the benefit of the doubt. Nothing he's done has earned that.


ml1 said:


nohero said:

Smedley said:Saying "this is MOL, and we are Liberals and we hate Trump. What are you doing here Why don't you go post on Fox News online?"

Is not being close-minded?
 I thought it was being satirical responding to your generalization.
 ^this
Personally, I'm getting really tired of the accusations of close-mindedness regarding Trump.  Trump has been a public figure for 5 decades.  He has shown himself repeatedly to be dishonest, misogynistic, bigoted, ignorant, and incompetent.  It's not close-minded to be very suspicious that he's going to suddenly turn himself around and become honest, competent and virtuous.  In my mind, anyone whose mind doesn't immediately go to suspicion regarding Trump is being exactly what I indicated above -- a sucker.

 Being suspicious of Trump isn't being close-minded. I consider myself a Trump skeptic in fact. Not a hater, but a skeptic. 

What is close-minded in my opinion is the inability or unwillingness to separate that extreme suspicion of Trump, from any action, policy or words from POTUS. Just because an action, policy, or words came down from the desk of a "dishonest, misogynistic, bigoted, ignorant, and incompetent" person, that automatically means that action, policy or words are awful, terrible and need to be derided. There's no room for a rational assessment of the action, policy or words. If it came from Trump, it must suck. 

 A lot of Trump haters are like this, just like Obama haters were for eight years. I think it's an unfortunate manifestation of the polarization of our political discourse. 

So, I can be skeptical of Trump but at the same time believe he does some things right. I don't think that makes me a "sucker". 

  




Smedley said:

 A lot of Trump haters are like this, just like Obama haters were for eight years. I think it's an unfortunate manifestation of the polarization of our political discourse. 
So, I can be skeptical of Trump but at the same time believe he does some things right. I don't think that makes me a "sucker". 
  

What has Trump done right?


dave23 said:


Smedley said:
 A lot of Trump haters are like this, just like Obama haters were for eight years. I think it's an unfortunate manifestation of the polarization of our political discourse. 
So, I can be skeptical of Trump but at the same time believe he does some things right. I don't think that makes me a "sucker". 
  
What has Trump done right?

OK, let's stay on the topic of this thread.

It is widely acknowledged that China has not played fair as a trading partner for years. Previous administrations seemed to have mostly jawboned but not really waded into the weeds on the issue.

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/04/09/trump-china-concerns-real-legitimate-obama-trade-rep-michael-froman.html

 So it seems to me, broadly speaking, that Trump had 3 options here.

1. Do the same thing as previous administrations and keep the status quo.

2. Tackle the issue with a "my way or the highway" approach, say akin to GW Bush had with Middle East policy.

3. Tackle the issue with a view of being flexible as to crafting a deal. Give and take. This may involve some unconventional negotiating tactics and stepping on some toes. 

I think #3 is the best option. Which is what Trump seems to be doing.   


Smedley said:

What is close-minded in my opinion is the inability or unwillingness to separate that extreme suspicion of Trump, from any action, policy or words from POTUS. Just because an action, policy, or words came down from the desk of a "dishonest, misogynistic, bigoted, ignorant, and incompetent" person, that automatically means that action, policy or words are awful, terrible and need to be derided. There's no room for a rational assessment of the action, policy or words. If it came from Trump, it must suck. 
 A lot of Trump haters are like this, just like Obama haters were for eight years. I think it's an unfortunate manifestation of the polarization of our political discourse. 
So, I can be skeptical of Trump but at the same time believe he does some things right. I don't think that makes me a "sucker". 
  


 because of who Trump is, it's not rational to believe he's doing the right things for the right reasons.  We can't know in the moment, or in the immediate aftermath of any decision whether it's even going to happen as Trump says, or if it is if it will be carried out competently, and if it is carried out competently, if it hasn't been done to benefit some member of the Trump Organization, or its associates.  

And that's not my fault.  It's Trump's.  The reason he's hated is because he is an objectively hateful person. 

It's a false equivalency to say it's the same as reaction to Obama.  Many, many conservatives irrationally hated Obama for false, made up reasons, and for things that Obama was never going to do.  People who hate Trump have a laundry list of rational reasons to do so.


Smedley said:


dave23 said:

Smedley said:
 A lot of Trump haters are like this, just like Obama haters were for eight years. I think it's an unfortunate manifestation of the polarization of our political discourse. 
So, I can be skeptical of Trump but at the same time believe he does some things right. I don't think that makes me a "sucker". 
  
What has Trump done right?
OK, let's stay on the topic of this thread.
It is widely acknowledged that China has not played fair as a trading partner for years. Previous administrations seemed to have mostly jawboned but not really waded into the weeds on the issue.
https://www.cnbc.com/2018/04/09/trump-china-concerns-real-legitimate-obama-trade-rep-michael-froman.html

 So it seems to me, broadly speaking, that Trump had 3 options here.
1. Do the same thing as previous administrations and keep the status quo.
2. Tackle the issue with a "my way or the highway" approach, say akin to GW Bush had with Middle East policy.
3. Tackle the issue with a view of being flexible as to crafting a deal. Give and take.
I think #3 is the best option. Which is what Trump seems to be doing.   

So you like his approach but it's too early to tell. I don't like his approach (the ZTE thing is plain bizarre) and have seen nothing from him to suggest he's capable of crafting a good deal of any sort, given his shallow understanding of any complex issue, short attention span, need for approval and general distemperment. But I'm open to seeing a fairer trade relationship with China.

Anything he's *done* right, though?


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