I can't believe my property taxes
sbenois said:
Can't believe that this topic has never come up before.
Thank you for my chuckle of the day.
TomR
Maybe move to East Hampton? I noticed this weekend that 9 million dollar houses there have property taxes of $50,000 a year, compared to Phil Murphy's place in Middletown, where his family pays $2000,000 per year.
yahooyahoo said:
conandrob240 said:http://blog.nj.com/njv_guest_blog/2013/06/constitutional_convention_is_b.html
again, yes. Then why doesn’t NJ look at some other models?
"The only way to make a deep-enough cut in property taxes to make New Jersey competitive is to reform the state’s tax structure by shifting part of the $20 billion cost of residential property taxes to another tax or taxes, as the League of Municipalities’ Property Tax Reform Task Force recommended last week.
It is increasingly clear that the only way to make that happen is through a citizens convention — a constitutional convention called specifically to reform the punishing and antiquated tax structure under which New Jerseyans pay more in property taxes each year than the state collects in income taxes, sales taxes, gas taxes, motor vehicle fees, and cigarette and alcohol taxes combined."
This. Many other states have much higher sales taxes, gas taxes and in some cases income taxes. The system in NJ, for whatever reasons, has evolved into the current unsustainable paradigm. I agree that only something massive and fundamental like a consitutional convention could fix it, and that's only assuming that some kind of general consensus on a new system could be arrived at. The retail industry would lobby hard against higher sales taxes, and some people would hate it anyway. And that's just one example....
kthnry said:
LOST said:I agree about SC, but taxes are also much lower in places that are pretty comparable to NNJ. For example, here's a house in Silver Spring, MD, just outside DC, popular commuter suburb, 5 bedrooms, 4 baths, listed for $829,000, taxes $5,384 (and they in fact dropped this year). That's consistent with other houses I checked and with my experience when I lived in Silver Spring ten years ago.
There are some nice apartments for rent in Maplewood-South Orange. I was in SC recently. I doubt that I could live there. Different strokes for different folks.
https://www.zillow.com/homes/for_sale/Silver-Spring-MD-20910/fsba_lt/house_type/37278471_zpid/66708_rid/150000-_price/609-_mp/globalrelevanceex_sort/39.002327,-77.020973,38.986934,-77.035865_rect/15_zm/
The main difference, as far as I can tell, is that most services are provided at the county level (Montgomery county), which covers 500 sq. miles and has a population of over a million. That includes schools ("As of the 2017–2018 school year, the district had 13,094 teachers serving 161,546 students at 205 schools"), police (about 1,100 officers), fire, animal control, zoning/code enforcement, etc. It still boggles my mind that services in NJ are provided by each itty-bitty town.
Maryland also has local income taxes. Maryland's local income taxes bring in 65% as much money as the local property taxes. Maryland also has govt liquor stores, although that's a smaller revenue input.
It is hard to believe, but Maryland's spending on public safety is higher than NJ's, according to several respectable sources I found (including the US Census).
Even with the local income tax, Maryland's taxes are so much more moderate than NJ's because education spending is 22% lower than NJ's on a per pupil basis. Plus, Maryland has 5% more students enrolled in private schools than NJ has.
Contrary to what is often implied by New Jerseyans, Maryland's central office administrative spending is only a minor factor in its lower overal spending, in fact, Maryland's spending on school-level administrators (ie, principals) is the only spending category that is higher than NJ's.
The proximate reasons for Maryland's lower spending are far fewer teachers per student. NJ has 112,377 teachers, so a student:teacher ratio is 11.9:1, the second lowest in the US.
Maryland has 60,053 teachers, so a student:teacher ratio is 14.6:1, the 30th lowest in the US.
On top of Maryland having fewer teachers, it pays them less well, at an average salary of $66,456 versus New Jersey's $69,330.
Another much lower expense in Maryland is that it has half as many students in OOD placement as NJ has. Although this *might* be due to having larger districts, in Maryland when there is a parental-district dispute on an OOD placement the burden-of-proof is on the parents to prove insufficiency, whereas in NJ the burden-of-proof is on the district to prove sufficiency. Due to this legal framework, it's very hard for a NJ district to prevail in OOD litigation and hence they often don't try.
The deeper reasons are multiple.
Maryland's teachers union is also much weaker than the NJEA, with the MEA having a budget one-sixth of the NJEA's. Maryland's teachers only got the right to impose agency fees in 2013, and it still hasn't been implemented statewide. NJ teachers have had the right to impose agency fees since 1978.
I don't think that Maryland's spending is lower because of economies of scale. Maryland's spending, IMO, is lower because of less interdistrict spending & salary guide competition, ie, there is no "Princeton/Abbott Effect."
Maryland's distribution of state aid is much flatter than NJ's, although that's a simplification. Montgomery County and Howard County, the two highest income districts in Maryland, get $5500-$6000 per student in state aid. The SOMSD, even if you count pensions + FICA, gets like ~$3500 per student in state aid.
On NJ/Maryland spending:
http://njeducationaid.blogspot.com/2017/12/how-maryland-does-it-how-another-deep.html
On Maryland state aid:
http://njeducationaid.blogspot.com/2018/03/maryland-state-aid.html
Runner_Guy said:
kthnry said:Maryland also has local income taxes. Maryland's local income taxes bring in 65% as much money as the local property taxes. Maryland also has govt liquor stores, although that's a smaller revenue input.
LOST said:I agree about SC, but taxes are also much lower in places that are pretty comparable to NNJ. For example, here's a house in Silver Spring, MD, just outside DC, popular commuter suburb, 5 bedrooms, 4 baths, listed for $829,000, taxes $5,384 (and they in fact dropped this year). That's consistent with other houses I checked and with my experience when I lived in Silver Spring ten years ago.
There are some nice apartments for rent in Maplewood-South Orange. I was in SC recently. I doubt that I could live there. Different strokes for different folks.
https://www.zillow.com/homes/for_sale/Silver-Spring-MD-20910/fsba_lt/house_type/37278471_zpid/66708_rid/150000-_price/609-_mp/globalrelevanceex_sort/39.002327,-77.020973,38.986934,-77.035865_rect/15_zm/
The main difference, as far as I can tell, is that most services are provided at the county level (Montgomery county), which covers 500 sq. miles and has a population of over a million. That includes schools ("As of the 2017–2018 school year, the district had 13,094 teachers serving 161,546 students at 205 schools"), police (about 1,100 officers), fire, animal control, zoning/code enforcement, etc. It still boggles my mind that services in NJ are provided by each itty-bitty town.
It is hard to believe, but Maryland's spending on public safety is higher than NJ's, according to several respectable sources I found (including the US Census).
Even with the local income tax, Maryland's taxes are so much more moderate than NJ's because education spending is 22% lower than NJ's on a per pupil basis. Plus, Maryland has 5% more students enrolled in private schools than NJ has.
Contrary to what is often implied by New Jerseyans, Maryland's central office administrative spending is only a minor factor in its lower overal spending, in fact, Maryland's spending on school-level administrators (ie, principals) is the only spending category that is higher than NJ's.
The proximate reasons for Maryland's lower spending are far fewer teachers per student. NJ has 112,377 teachers, so a student:teacher ratio is 11.9:1, the second lowest in the US.
Maryland has 60,053 teachers, so a student:teacher ratio is 14.6:1, the 30th lowest in the US.
On top of Maryland having fewer teachers, it pays them less well, at an average salary of $66,456 versus New Jersey's $69,330.
Another much lower expense in Maryland is that it has half as many students in OOD placement as NJ has. Although this *might* be due to having larger districts, in Maryland when there is a parental-district dispute on an OOD placement the burden-of-proof is on the parents to prove insufficiency, whereas in NJ the burden-of-proof is on the district to prove sufficiency. Due to this legal framework, it's very hard for a NJ district to prevail in OOD litigation and hence they often don't try.
The deeper reasons are multiple.
Maryland's teachers union is also much weaker than the NJEA, with the MEA having a budget one-sixth of the NJEA's. Maryland's teachers only got the right to impose agency fees in 2013, and it still hasn't been implemented statewide. NJ teachers have had the right to impose agency fees since 1978.
I don't think that Maryland's spending is lower because of economies of scale. Maryland's spending, IMO, is lower because of less interdistrict spending & salary guide competition, ie, there is no "Princeton/Abbott Effect."
Maryland's distribution of state aid is much flatter than NJ's, although that's a simplification. Montgomery County and Howard County, the two highest income districts in Maryland, get $5500-$6000 per student in state aid. The SOMSD, even if you count pensions + FICA, gets like ~$3500 per student in state aid.
On NJ/Maryland spending:
http://njeducationaid.blogspot.com/2017/12/how-maryland-does-it-how-another-deep.html
On Maryland state aid:
http://njeducationaid.blogspot.com/2018/03/maryland-state-aid.html
Yeah, but who wants to live in Maryland if you work in Manhattan.
As the realtors say, it is all about location, location, location.
Tom_R said:
If you're writing of your home in NYC, I can't help but wonder whether your 13% increase is a greater or lesser hit to the wallet than the ~2% annual increases in MaSO.
TomR
It's a fair question, and I honestly don't remember. We live in a coop building, so the property taxes are rolled into the monthly maintenance fee, so it's not all that visible. I just remember the announcement that year. Many people in downstate New York are under the same tax pressures as yooze in northern New Jersey.
so explain why property taxes are nowhere near as high on Long Island in excellent towns (good services, schools) an hour or so from NYC?
The legislature and governor's subservience to public sector unions is a major reason for NJ's obscene property taxes too.
http://www.nj.com/politics/index.ssf/2018/05/murphy_signs_law_expanding_public_worker_union_rig.html
Runner_Guy said:
The legislature and governor's subservience to public sector unions is a major reason for NJ's obscene property taxes too.
http://www.nj.com/politics/index.ssf/2018/05/murphy_signs_law_expanding_public_worker_union_rig.html
What happened with the extension of the 2% arbitration cap? Was it extended or is it still in limbo?
wedjet said:
Yeah, but who wants to live in Maryland if you work in Manhattan.
Someone was comparing Maplewood taxes to South Carolina's, which isn't useful. Maryland is more relevant given that the DC metro area is large, dense, and expensive, like NYC. MoCo cities like Silver Spring and Bethesda are about the same commuting distance to downtown DC as Maplewood is to NYC, with similar demographics and housing prices.
Or were you making a joke? If so, never mind.
Runner_Guy said:
Maryland also has local income taxes. Maryland's local income taxes bring in 65% as much money as the local property taxes. Maryland also has govt liquor stores, although that's a smaller revenue input.
It is hard to believe, but Maryland's spending on public safety is higher than NJ's, according to several respectable sources I found (including the US Census).
Even with the local income tax, Maryland's taxes are so much more moderate than NJ's because education spending is 22% lower than NJ's on a per pupil basis. Plus, Maryland has 5% more students enrolled in private schools than NJ has.
Good info, Runner_Guy. Thanks for the research! Will follow up on the links.
This issue sticks in my craw because I had some bad years in NJ during the recession and nearly had to give back my house because of property taxes. If I'd been in MD, my property taxes would have been half as much, my income taxes would have dropped, and I could have cut back on liquor. 
cramer said:
Runner_Guy said:What happened with the extension of the 2% arbitration cap? Was it extended or is it still in limbo?
The legislature and governor's subservience to public sector unions is a major reason for NJ's obscene property taxes too.
http://www.nj.com/politics/index.ssf/2018/05/murphy_signs_law_expanding_public_worker_union_rig.html
The arbitration cap expired December 31st. The leaders of the legislature haven't made any move to revive it, nor has Phil Murphy.
During the campaign Murphy refused to give an opinion on the arbitration cap. Astute people knew that that silence was a signal that he would let the cap die, but Murphy won the election anyway.
Although I can dive down into structural, economic, and corruption reasons for NJ's sky-high property taxes, ultimately it's the electorate's fault because it elects people whose priority is something other than lowering taxes.
If you want to lower your taxes, vote for a governor and state representatives who want to do that too.
kthnry said:
Runner_Guy said:Good info, Runner_Guy. Thanks for the research! Will follow up on the links.
Maryland also has local income taxes. Maryland's local income taxes bring in 65% as much money as the local property taxes. Maryland also has govt liquor stores, although that's a smaller revenue input.
It is hard to believe, but Maryland's spending on public safety is higher than NJ's, according to several respectable sources I found (including the US Census).
Even with the local income tax, Maryland's taxes are so much more moderate than NJ's because education spending is 22% lower than NJ's on a per pupil basis. Plus, Maryland has 5% more students enrolled in private schools than NJ has.
This issue sticks in my craw because I had some bad years in NJ during the recession and nearly had to give back my house because of property taxes. If I'd been in MD, my property taxes would have been half as much, my income taxes would have dropped, and I could have cut back on liquor.
I know. The situation is so awful.
Because of Maryland's partial reliance on local income taxes, if your income sinks for individual reasons or because of a recession, your local taxes shrink too.
On top of the automatic reduction of income taxes, Maryland also has a "circuit breaker" that would reduce your property taxes too. (like Kim Guadagno's proposal that "smart" New Jerseyans derided as unworkable.)
http://dat.maryland.gov/realproperty/Pages/Homeowners'-Property-Tax-Credit-Program.aspx
We don’t need to compare Maplewood to South Carolina or a town in any other state. I live in the Wyoming section of Millburn, very close to the border with Maplewood (I love Maplewood and commute from the train station in the village, which is why I’m on MOL). I live in a relatively modest house with 3 BR’s and 1.5 baths. One of the primary reasons I preferred Millburn over Maplewood/SO is due to the difference in ratables (mainly due to the Short Hills mall, I believe). Sure, I could have bought a bigger house in Maplewood but my taxes would be insane. If you picked up my house and moved it 2 blocks over into Maplewood, my taxes would go up by 40-50%! Maplewood needs to better calibrate their Municipal services to their ratables. Something is clearly way out of whack. For example, I honestly don’t think Maplewood needs a FT fire department - there are no malls or big office buildings as far as I know. This alone won’t have much of an impact, but my sense is that it’s just the tip of the iceberg.
conandrob240 said:
so explain why property taxes are nowhere near as high on Long Island in excellent towns (good services, schools) an hour or so from NYC?
Among other reasons, a higher state income tax and completely different school funding formula in NY.
Runner_Guy said:
cramer said:The arbitration cap expired December 31st. The leaders of the legislature haven't made any move to revive it, nor has Phil Murphy.
What happened with the extension of the 2% arbitration cap? Was it extended or is it still in limbo?
During the campaign Murphy refused to give an opinion on the arbitration cap. Astute people knew that that silence was a signal that he would let the cap die, but Murphy won the election anyway.
I also blame the Democrats who didn't have the guts to push it through in the lame duck session.
If we have to cut other services because arbitration awards exceed 2%, we can blame the Democrats and Murphy. (I'm a Democrat.)
. deleted since wasn't sure it adds up right.
ETA: But I guess Amstel wants to show my random thought (below) even though I figured I should research a bit more first.
sprout said:
Amstel said:Also, I'm guessing you are in a 'less wealthy' part of Millburn/Short Hills, but you are right next to a "more wealthy" part of Maplewood. Your wealthier Short Hills townsfolk get to add in a bigger pieces of the tax collection pie, while the Maplewood houses near you are our wealthier townsfolk that put in the bigger tax pieces.
I live in the Wyoming section of Millburn, very close to the border with Maplewood (I love Maplewood and commute from the train station in the village, which is why I’m on MOL). I live in a relatively modest house with 3 BR’s and 1.5 baths. One of the primary reasons I preferred Millburn over Maplewood/SO is due to the difference in ratables (mainly due to the Short Hills mall, I believe). Sure, I could have bought a bigger house in Maplewood but my taxes would be insane. If you picked up my house and moved it 2 blocks over into Maplewood, my taxes would go up by 40-50%! Maplewood needs to better calibrate their Municipal services to their ratables. Something is clearly way out of whack. For example, I honestly don’t think Maplewood needs a FT fire department - there are no malls or big office buildings as far as I know. This alone won’t have much of an impact, but my sense is that it’s just the tip of the iceberg.
Amstel said:
One of the primary reasons I preferred Millburn over Maplewood/SO is due to the difference in ratables (mainly due to the Short Hills mall, I believe). Sure, I could have bought a bigger house in Maplewood but my taxes would be insane. If you picked up my house and moved it 2 blocks over into Maplewood, my taxes would go up by 40-50%!
Is this a town issue or a county issue? Seems that all Essex county towns have exceptionally high taxes.
Thanks to Runner_Boy for explaining it to us every year or so. It's so complicated, I have trouble retaining it.
That is correct, Sprout. I like to say I live “down the hill Millburn”. The point about better aligning services and ratables is still valid, however. Perhaps the issue is more related to State-level subsidies? If NJ insists on having all these separate municipalities, the “leveling” mechanism coming in topside is broken (If there is one). While clearly to my advantage, it makes no sense that my Maplewood neighbors (2 blocks away) who live in comparable homes on comparable streets have less municipal services and pay a significantly higher tax.
Amstel said:
That is correct, Sprout. I like to say I live “down the hill Millburn”. The point about better aligning services and ratables is still valid, however. Perhaps the issue is more related to State-level subsidies? If NJ insists on having all these separate municipalities, the “leveling” mechanism coming in topside is broken (If there is one). While clearly to my advantage, it makes no sense that my Maplewood neighbors (2 blocks away) who live in comparable homes on comparable streets have less municipal services and pay a significantly higher tax.
It's all about the ratables. Without Short Hills Mall and the more extensive commercial districts that Millburn has, it would be in the same boat as Maplewood. Are you suggesting that Maplewood should have fewer municiple services? What would you cut exactly? (BTW, the fire department is merging with South Orange's, so we are already addressing that point....)
weirdbeard said:
conandrob240 said:Among other reasons, a higher state income tax and completely different school funding formula in NY.
so explain why property taxes are nowhere near as high on Long Island in excellent towns (good services, schools) an hour or so from NYC?
For some reason there is resistance to understanding this.
kthnry said:
Runner_Guy said:Good info, Runner_Guy. Thanks for the research! Will follow up on the links.
Maryland also has local income taxes. Maryland's local income taxes bring in 65% as much money as the local property taxes. Maryland also has govt liquor stores, although that's a smaller revenue input.
It is hard to believe, but Maryland's spending on public safety is higher than NJ's, according to several respectable sources I found (including the US Census).
Even with the local income tax, Maryland's taxes are so much more moderate than NJ's because education spending is 22% lower than NJ's on a per pupil basis. Plus, Maryland has 5% more students enrolled in private schools than NJ has.
This issue sticks in my craw because I had some bad years in NJ during the recession and nearly had to give back my house because of property taxes. If I'd been in MD, my property taxes would have been half as much, my income taxes would have dropped, and I could have cut back on liquor.
Another comparison I don’t see mentioned here is that Maryland has Baltimore. NJ has Newark, Irvington, E orange, Paterson, Trenton, Camden, ...
weirdbeard said:
conandrob240 said:Among other reasons, a higher state income tax and completely different school funding formula in NY.
so explain why property taxes are nowhere near as high on Long Island in excellent towns (good services, schools) an hour or so from NYC?
The difference in state income tax is pretty small- 1%? Not a solid explanation, why doesn’t nJ use a different school funding formula? More importantly, why do people defind it like it’s ok?
Red_Barchetta said:
kthnry said:Another comparison I don’t see mentioned here is that Maryland has Baltimore. NJ has Newark, Irvington, E orange, Paterson, Trenton, Camden, ...
Runner_Guy said:Good info, Runner_Guy. Thanks for the research! Will follow up on the links.
Maryland also has local income taxes. Maryland's local income taxes bring in 65% as much money as the local property taxes. Maryland also has govt liquor stores, although that's a smaller revenue input.
It is hard to believe, but Maryland's spending on public safety is higher than NJ's, according to several respectable sources I found (including the US Census).
Even with the local income tax, Maryland's taxes are so much more moderate than NJ's because education spending is 22% lower than NJ's on a per pupil basis. Plus, Maryland has 5% more students enrolled in private schools than NJ has.
This issue sticks in my craw because I had some bad years in NJ during the recession and nearly had to give back my house because of property taxes. If I'd been in MD, my property taxes would have been half as much, my income taxes would have dropped, and I could have cut back on liquor.
Seriously? Lol.bkaltimire has more than its share of “sucky”!
conandrob240 said:
Red_Barchetta said:Seriously? Lol.Baltimore has more than its share of “sucky”!
kthnry said:Another comparison I don’t see mentioned here is that Maryland has Baltimore. NJ has Newark, Irvington, E orange, Paterson, Trenton, Camden, ...
Runner_Guy said:Good info, Runner_Guy. Thanks for the research! Will follow up on the links.
Maryland also has local income taxes. Maryland's local income taxes bring in 65% as much money as the local property taxes. Maryland also has govt liquor stores, although that's a smaller revenue input.
It is hard to believe, but Maryland's spending on public safety is higher than NJ's, according to several respectable sources I found (including the US Census).
Even with the local income tax, Maryland's taxes are so much more moderate than NJ's because education spending is 22% lower than NJ's on a per pupil basis. Plus, Maryland has 5% more students enrolled in private schools than NJ has.
This issue sticks in my craw because I had some bad years in NJ during the recession and nearly had to give back my house because of property taxes. If I'd been in MD, my property taxes would have been half as much, my income taxes would have dropped, and I could have cut back on liquor.
Red_Barchetta said:
I’m saying we have many sucky Baltimores. They have one.
Baltimore also gets a lot less state education money than its equivalents do in NJ.
Even counting Maryland's state contribution for pensions, the amount of state aid Baltimore gets is $12,100 per student, with a few hundred more for construction. Maryland gives out very little for PreK too.
NJ's Abbotts, counting opex aid and the state's payments for Social Security, TPAF, post-retirement medical, and construction, get about $20,000 per student. The Abbotts also get two years of state-funded PreK for each child, which costs about $14,000 per student. They also get the state to pay for 100% of construction costs.
Baltimore City indeed gets more state aid per student than any other district in MD, but it's significantly less than it would get if it were in NJ.
There are many reasons NJ's taxes are this bad and yes, Abbott and the diversion of state aid from middle-class districts and working class non-Abbotts districts is one of them.
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If you're writing of your home in NYC, I can't help but wonder whether your 13% increase is a greater or lesser hit to the wallet than the ~2% annual increases in MaSO.
TomR