So Biden has announced an unconditional withdrawal from Afghanistan by 9/11/21

Another Bush neo-con foreign policy disaster that is rarely treated as such.

20 years.

2 trillion down the hole.

And for what?

Good for Biden, and us.

Let's hope it finally ends.

We'll see. 

One wonders both what the proper policy moving forward for the US would be. Should we try to prop up the existing government or should we just accept that the Taliban will be in control and find a way to live with them?

I mean, given the Taliban's record on human rights, I would be hard pressed to say that cooperating with them would, in any way, be moral but are they better than the alternative of anarchy and war lord rule?

I honestly don't know what the correct answer is here...... or America's actual intentions.

Klinker said:

One wonders both what the proper policy moving forward for the US would be. Should we try to prop up the existing government or should we just accept that the Taliban will be in control and find a way to live with them?

I mean, given the Taliban's record on human rights, I would be hard pressed to say that cooperating with them would, in any way, be moral but are they better than the alternative of anarchy and war lord rule?

I honestly don't know what the correct answer is here...... or America's actual intentions.

There is no correct answer. We have no business staying there, but if we leave we throw the free people of Afghanistan under the Taliban bus, including women, LGBTQ, and pretty much everyone who is not a member of the Taliban.

It seems like one thing we could do is open our doors to whatever refugees might want to escape.  Of course, sooner or later, someone would commit a previous crime and the MAGAS would unfairly tar all refugees.

A couple of generations on, it is hard to argue that the massive immigration of Vietnamese people to the US following the Fall of Saigon has been anything other than a net gain for our country.

Klinker said:

It seems like one thing we could do is open our doors to whatever refugees might want to escape.

I generally struggle to find clear answers on foreign policy, but admitting refugees is the one clear exception. Whatever one believes we should or should not be doing in Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan, or anywhere else, we absolutely should be welcoming more people from Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan, and elsewhere here.

PVW said:

I generally struggle to find clear answers on foreign policy, but admitting refugees is the one clear exception. Whatever one believes we should or should not be doing in Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan, or anywhere else, we absolutely should be welcoming more people from Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan, and elsewhere here.

 Right.  At a bare minimum, the people who worked and fought for us and, in doing so, put a big target on their back.  I believe there were programs for this under Bush and Obama but I know Trump slammed the door in our allies faces.

Klinker said:

It seems like one thing we could do is open our doors to whatever refugees might want to escape.  Of course, sooner or later, someone would commit a previous crime and the MAGAS would unfairly tar all refugees.

A couple of generations on, it is hard to argue that the massive immigration of Vietnamese people to the US following the Fall of Saigon has been anything other than a net gain for our country.

 Just opened this thread and was wondering if there was an organization that could assist women in the vicinity with the option to enter the US as refugees, then saw your post. I think it needs to be done.

Morganna said:

Klinker said:

It seems like one thing we could do is open our doors to whatever refugees might want to escape.  Of course, sooner or later, someone would commit a previous crime and the MAGAS would unfairly tar all refugees.

A couple of generations on, it is hard to argue that the massive immigration of Vietnamese people to the US following the Fall of Saigon has been anything other than a net gain for our country.

 Just opened this thread and was wondering if there was an organization that could assist women in the vicinity with the option to enter the US as refugees, then saw your post. I think it needs to be done.

 The problem there is that our official number of allowable refugees  is still at the cutback Trump level. (15k?) Biden has not raised it yet.

https://www.cnn.com/2021/04/15/politics/biden-refugees/index.html

drummerboy said:

 The problem there is that our official number of allowable refugees  is still at the cutback Trump level. (15k?) Biden has not raised it yet.

https://www.cnn.com/2021/04/15/politics/biden-refugees/index.html

 Nor will he.

NYT: Biden Tosses Campaign Promise and Refugees Under the Bus

Actually, it is worse than that because the changes Biden is making will make it harder for people who worked for the US and fought alongside our forces to gain entry.

I guess those folks just picked the wrong time to ally themselves with the United States.  This will undoubtedly serve as a valuable lesson to potential allies in the future.

Klinker said:

drummerboy said:

 The problem there is that our official number of allowable refugees  is still at the cutback Trump level. (15k?) Biden has not raised it yet.

https://www.cnn.com/2021/04/15/politics/biden-refugees/index.html

 Nor will he.

NYT: Biden Tosses Campaign Promise and Refugees Under the Bus

Actually, it is worse than that because the changes Biden is making will make it harder for people who worked for the US and fought alongside our forces to gain entry.

 This was buried at the end of the article:

Mr. Biden still plans to raise the level of refugee admissions to
125,000 in October for the next fiscal year, the administration official
said

Seems significant.

drummerboy said:

 This was buried at the end of the article:

Mr. Biden still plans to raise the level of refugee admissions to
125,000 in October for the next fiscal year, the administration official
said

Seems significant.

That will be cold comfort to our translators, etc in Afghanistan on September 12

 In any case, he "planned" to raise them to 60,000 once he took office.  Until he actually raises the limit, the only significant fact is that he has, in actuality, left a whole lot of people out to dry.

looks like something will happen in May

oh that's good news

I don't know what we could actually do in Afghanistan at this point, but it's deeply discouraging to think of the Afghan people under the control of the Taliban again.  The women, the girls, the ones who have tried to help the US....

some more detail

maybe I'm naive, but I think Biden is trying to do the best that he can.

drummerboy said:

maybe I'm naive, but I think Biden is trying to the best that he can.

Yup, I am in the naive camp too. My alter ego klinker has always hated biden.

basil said:

drummerboy said:

maybe I'm naive, but I think Biden is trying to the best that he can.

Yup, I am in the naive camp too. My alter ego klinker has always hated biden.

I think Biden is a little reluctant to be blaming Trump for the state he left various parts of the Federal government, but I bet of any part, immigration systems was one of the most decimated.

basil said:

Yup, I am in the naive camp too. My alter ego klinker has always hated biden.

 I don't know that "hate" is the word I would use.  I voted for the guy after all.  I simply thought he was too old, too conservative and just too damn stupid to serve as President.  For the most part, I have been pleased, thus far, with the way he has overcome those handicaps.

I didn't like his wandering hands either.  He seems to have shaped up on that front.  

Overall, in the end, he was definitely better than the alternative.  If he runs again in 2024 AND if he has a primary challenge from the vast majority of the Democratic world that lies to his left, I will almost certainly support his challenger.

I was heartened to see how quickly Biden realized that "the best that he can" could be better in this case.

drummerboy said:

maybe I'm naive, but I think Biden is trying to do the best that he can.

 Agreed. And I think the reason that he’s not making changes *right now* is that the administration doesn’t want any more refugees coming because the system is presently overwhelmed.

PVW said:

I was heartened to see how quickly Biden realized that "the best that he can" could be better in this case.

 Yes. 

Klinker said:

I didn't like his wandering hands either.  He seems to have shaped up on that front.  

Overall, in the end, he was definitely better than the alternative.  If he runs again in 2024 AND if he has a primary challenge from the vast majority of the Democratic world that lies to his left, I will almost certainly support his challenger.

 you just can't admit you were wrong, can you

basil said:

Klinker said:

I didn't like his wandering hands either.  He seems to have shaped up on that front.  

Overall, in the end, he was definitely better than the alternative.  If he runs again in 2024 AND if he has a primary challenge from the vast majority of the Democratic world that lies to his left, I will almost certainly support his challenger.

 you just can't admit you were wrong, can you

 Biden is proving that he is not, in Klinker's words, "too old too conservative and too stupid".

If he decides to run for re-election any primary challenge would be foolish and would weaken the Democratic nominee as happened in 1980 when Kennedy challenged Carter from the left and elected Reagan.

Of course if Biden does not seek re-election the strongest contender for the nomination will be Harris. The MAGA crowd said she was "more liberal than Bernie Sanders". Will the US elect a mixed race woman, daughter of immigrants from India and the West Indies. I would certainly like to live to see that.

His age and intellect don't bother me too much as they can both be compensated for by good advisers.  His politics are pretty far to the right of mine and I would definitely support someone who I found more "simpatico".

Am I wrong to say this?

Has anyone ever gotten more bang for his buck than Osama bin Laden, given what ensued after Twin Tower attack? 

Sounds cynical and maybe disrespectful in light of all the deaths but nevertheless valid IMO.

Biden Ditches the Generals, Finally

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/04/17/opinion/sunday/biden-afghanistan-war.html?action=click&module=Opinion&pgtype=Homepage

"We spent 20 years fighting in Afghanistan. But given our flat learning curve, every year there was like the first. So we were really on our first year for the 20th time, making the same mistakes over and over again.

As with Vietnam, many of those in charge knew for a long time that the war was unwinnable, but they hid the evidence, giving rosy forecasts while burning through $2.2 trillion and hundreds of thousands of lives."

"And Biden was right to ignore dire warnings about what will happen when we leave. The Taliban cannot be trusted; they’re true believers in a medieval ideology. A power-sharing arrangement with the Taliban was never going to work."