Anti-Semitism or legitimate criticism
As a fairly liberal Jew, I am often critical of policies undertaken by the State of Israel. However, I get very uncomfortable when it feels like some are critical of Israel in ways that they do not apply to almost any other state in the world.
For example, what Myanmar is doing to the Rohingya minority is far more brutal than anything that Israel has done with regards to the Palestinians. Yet there is no BDS movement bringing forth media superstars to castigate Myanmar. In fact, the hitherto sainted Ang San Suu Kyi has remained conspicuously silent in the face of Buddhist atrocities against this Muslim minority--atrocities that rival some of the worst ethnic cleansing in the world.
Yet we hear nothing about this, especially nothing from the liberal/leftist activists out there.
Or take the headlines from AP, New York Times, Washington Post--Palestinian Youth Shot by Israeli Military--conveniently not mentioning that those youths were shot after savagely knifing an innocent Israeli civilian (or burying this fact deep in the article).
Or take the recent stupid statement by Netanyahu trying to tie the Grand Mufti into responsibility for the entire Holocaust. Netanyahu was excoriated in many editorials, and rightfully so. But I have seem no editorials taking Abbas to task for a far more egregious set of speeches and interviews he gave around that time praising those who are trying to stab innocent Israeli citizens and drive trucks into people peacefully waiting for buses. What Netanyahu said was intemperate, but no one will die because of it. Abbas is actively abetting murder of innocents. And the world is silent.
Given the history of virulent hatred for Jews in many lands throughout much of modern times, I think this one-sidedness has its roots in anti-Semitism, even if I am not ready to call it outright anti-Semitism per se.
None of this justifies Israel doing things that are blatantly immoral or which egregiously violate Palestinian human rights. But there is often not a clear line between when a nation state is protecting itself and its citizens, and when it crosses over into immoral behavior. My take is that the general demonization of Jews that has existed for centuries makes it easier for many to look at the gray areas and blame the Jewish State without taking into account what the Palestinians are doing and without demanding that the Palestinians be taken to task and forced to work for peace.
Well said mfpark! The double standard that is out there sometimes makes me question my long-standing association with some liberal/progressive movements and media.
To me racism, anti-semitism and beauty are all in the eye of the beholder. As for the liberal vs the conservative each has gone to equal extremes. Much of the news media is as archly "progressive" as rush l. is archly rightist. And it's equally distasteful!
Moderation is nice Extremism $$$ells
My personal example occurred over coffee. I said that I was/am fed up with The Holocaust this the holocaust that etc. Friend said, "That's the most anti-semitic thing I ever heard!" Her husband replied, "Calm down. He's Greek. If I had to listen to a lot of how badly the turks treated Greeks over the years I be pretty tired of it too."
I think there are pretty clear cut examples of racism and anti-Semitism.... and the Holocaust is nothing to be making jokes about or light of. Period.
Apollo_T said:
To me racism, anti-semitism and beauty are all in the eye of the beholder. As for the liberal vs the conservative each has gone to equal extremes. Much of the news media is as archly "progressive" as rush l. is archly rightist. And it's equally distasteful!
Moderation is nice Extremism $$$ells
My personal example occurred over coffee. I said that I was/am fed up with The Holocaust this the holocaust that etc. Friend said, "That's the most anti-semitic thing I ever heard!" Her husband replied, "Calm down. He's Greek. If I had to listen to a lot of how badly the turks treated Greeks over the years I be pretty tired of it too."
BubbaTerp said:
I think there are pretty clear cut examples of racism and anti-Semitism.... and the Holocaust is nothing to be making jokes about or light of. Period.
please show where exactly I did that.
Legitimate criticism. Israel receives 3.1 billion dollars from the US in military aid. This issue has been going on for 60 + years. I think it is a diversion tactic to call anti-Semitic or what about this other country... The settlements in the West Bank are illegal under international law and Netanyahu continues allow them to be built. Netanyahu is a right wing hawk and his idea of peace is for the Palestinians to shut up, be dead, or leave.
Are there people who are anti-Semitic? Unfortunately. Are there people who are anti-Muslim? Probably more so. Criticism of current Israeli policies does not = Anti-Semitism.
The stabbings are awful.....as are the public lynchings. It is an awful cycle. It must be broken by diplomatic means.
Just of note - many Palestinians do not think Abbas represents them. He was elected in 2005 by Israeli organized elections.....his term has long since passed.
I criticize Israeli policy and plan to vote for Bernie Sanders.
Carrie, very timely that you post that about US military aid to Israel. I was literally JUST reading this:
http://elderofziyon.blogspot.com/2015/11/cnn-swallows-myth-of-israel-dominating.html
Public lynchings?
Israeli manipulation of Palestinian elections?
Settlements being the only reason there isn't peace?
#feelthebern
carrielogo said:
Legitimate criticism. Israel receives 3.1 billion dollars from the US in military aid. This issue has been going on for 60 + years. I think it is a diversion tactic to call anti-Semitic or what about this other country... The settlements in the West Bank are illegal under international law and Netanyahu continues allow them to be built. Netanyahu is a right wing hawk and his idea of peace is for the Palestinians to shut up, be dead, or leave.
Are there people who are anti-Semitic? Unfortunately. Are there people who are anti-Muslim? Probably more so. Criticism of current Israeli policies does not = Anti-Semitism.
The stabbings are awful.....as are the public lynchings. It is an awful cycle. It must be broken by diplomatic means.
Just of note - many Palestinians do not think Abbas represents them. He was elected in 2005 by Israeli organized elections.....his term has long since passed.
I criticize Israeli policy and plan to vote for Bernie Sanders.
I never implied that you did anything... I was stating that I disagree that racism and anti-Semitism are in the eye of the beholder... they can be pretty clear cut. Abbas, the "partner for peace" calling Jews filthy, inciting murder, not supporting freedom of religious action in shared holy spaces and calling for a Jew-free state are examples of anti-Semitism.
Apollo_T said:
BubbaTerp said:please show where exactly I did that.
I think there are pretty clear cut examples of racism and anti-Semitism.... and the Holocaust is nothing to be making jokes about or light of. Period.
susan1014 said:
Well said mfpark! The double standard that is out there sometimes makes me question my long-standing association with some liberal/progressive movements and media.
Agreed, that was very articulate, it's fine to be critical of Israel just as long as that criticism is placed in context and proportion, which so often it isn't.
I agree with everything MFPark said, 100%
But here's the reason I think Israel has become such a lightening rod, especially for the left, especially on college campuses: unlike Myanmar, Saudi Arabia, North Korea, Sudan, Pakistan, Iran and other regimes who commit far worse offenses than Israel, the Israelis are the only ones with a sizable crew to argue back.
Protest agains the treatment of Rohingyas and everyone on campus will agree with you. Write a HuffingtonPost article about it at best you'll get some comments from anti-Muslim loons and a few expat Burmese.
But protest against the Netanyahu government's policies and you'll get counter-protesters or angry commenters (both Hasbara, evangelicals and everyday people.) So suddenly, it becomes a battle, a challenge, your voice is needed and the whole things turns into a much bigger deal, because some people actually disagree with you and think you're wrong and you need to prove to them that you're right.
That's not to say many of the protesters don't have some anti-Semitic intent, but I do think it explains why the Israeli-Palestinian conflict has become such a hot issue on college campuses.
Apollo_T said:
To me racism, anti-semitism and beauty are all in the eye of the beholder. As for the liberal vs the conservative each has gone to equal extremes. Much of the news media is as archly "progressive" as rush l. is archly rightist. And it's equally distasteful!
I'm wondering what media universe you live in. The "conservative view" in media - from corporatist NY Times to whacko FoxNews, overwhelms, by probably a geometric factor, the "progressive" media, such as it is.
ParticleMan said:
Carrie, very timely that you post that about US military aid to Israel. I was literally JUST reading this:
http://elderofziyon.blogspot.com/2015/11/cnn-swallows-myth-of-israel-dominating.html
good article. I always forgot to consider the now somewhat obvious ways the U.S. spends vast amounts of "foreign aid" under other names.
Bubbaterp -
You didn't hear about the Eritrean man that was killed in a public lynching? Gruesome....and he was just a bystander!
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/oct/19/hunt-for-israelis-who-killed-eritrean-man-falsely-implicated-in-bus-attack
I didn't say settlements were the only roadblock to peace, but it is a big one! It should be challenged more....when Netanyahu comes asking for further aid.
"I think it is a diversion tactic to call anti-Semitic or what about this other country..."
How can it be a "diversion" when critics of Israel only care about what they believe are the unconscionable misdeeds of one country--and gosh, it just happens to be the state of the Jews?
Citing US aid to Israel is the actual diversion from critics' obsession with that country. After all, the US also provides aid to the Palestinians (which their leaders steal and squander). We aid Pakistan (which developed nukes illegally under our noses, colludes with the Taliban, and harbored Osama bin Laden). We aid Egypt (which is a police state that persecutes minorities and bulldozes Palestinian houses just like Israel does--except that when Egypt does it, everybody understands that, well, you see, they have to). We have this tight relationship with Saudi Arabia (which flogs and imprisons rape victims).
And so on.
I mean, yes, the stabbings in Jerusalem are "awful," aren't they. But you seem to imagine they're to be expected. After all, settlements! Never mind that this latest crap is all about al Aqsa Mosque, not settlements. That Abbas stayed away from the negotiating table, even after the US pressured Netanyahu into suspending building, until it was too late. And no kidding, the Palestinians won't vote for Abbas again--because they will vote overwhelmingly for Hamas.
"Criticism of current Israeli policies does not = Anti-Semitism."
Its sure does when it doesn't weight anyone else's behavior, or political realities, dispassionately. It = anti-Semitism all day long.
But mfpark nailed this already.
I could certainly supply a list of complaints about Egyptian and Saudia Arabian human rights violations....but this was a thread about Israel.
Yes, the latest "crap" was about Temple Mount.....
carrielogo said:
I could certainly supply a list of complaints about Egyptian and Saudia Arabian human rights violations....but this was a thread about Israel.
Why?
"Your dog pooped on the rug."
"Yes, but your dog also pooped on the rug, and vomited the garbage he ate from the recycling."
"But YOUR DOG pooped on the rug."
"It's not a lot of poop relative to your dog's vomit. Also, every other dog in the house is having diarrhea on the rug."
"We were talking about your dog and his pooping, which is against the rules of the house."
"Look, he's a dog. I would rather he didn't do these things, but let's be fair: it's not like he has a lot of room to poop elsewhere."
"No one asked your dog to live here."
"Well he was at a kill shelter. I wasn't going to leave him there! Honestly, it kind of seems like you don't like my dog..."
"That's got nothing to do with it."
Never said Israel was a perfect place and crimes happen there no different from ANY OTHER country on the planet. Was the lynching tragic? Absolutely. Was it a state mandated affair? Absolutely NOT. Big difference. I also beg you to find any evidence that Netanyahu or any member of the government called for this man or any Eritrean to be murdered, otherwise the state has nothing to do with it.
carrielogo said:
Bubbaterp -
You didn't hear about the Eritrean man that was killed in a public lynching? Gruesome....and he was just a bystander!
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/oct/19/hunt-for-israelis-who-killed-eritrean-man-falsely-implicated-in-bus-attack
I didn't say settlements were the only roadblock to peace, but it is a big one! It should be challenged more....when Netanyahu comes asking for further aid.
carrielogo said:
Legitimate criticism. Israel receives 3.1 billion dollars from the US in military aid. This issue has been going on for 60 + years. I think it is a diversion tactic to call anti-Semitic or what about this other country... The settlements in the West Bank are illegal under international law and Netanyahu continues allow them to be built. Netanyahu is a right wing hawk and his idea of peace is for the Palestinians to shut up, be dead, or leave.
Are there people who are anti-Semitic? Unfortunately. Are there people who are anti-Muslim? Probably more so. Criticism of current Israeli policies does not = Anti-Semitism.
The stabbings are awful.....as are the public lynchings. It is an awful cycle. It must be broken by diplomatic means.
Just of note - many Palestinians do not think Abbas represents them. He was elected in 2005 by Israeli organized elections.....his term has long since passed.
I criticize Israeli policy and plan to vote for Bernie Sanders.
Agree with much of what you are saying. But none of this refutes my main point, which is that Israel gets far more negative blowback for its faults than almost any other nation in the world. And I think that this stems from a prevailing deeply held view about Jews.
In my initial post I did not mention Saudi Arabia, which has a horrific human rights record against its own citizens and against guest workers, yet which is the lead nation on the UN Human Rights Commission with US sponsorship.
The US also gives over $2.5B to Palestine and about $2.0B to Egypt, but rarely do you see US activists making demands that aid be cut severely until these two entities start behaving like we want them to.
Regardless of whether Palestinians support Abbas or not, from the polls I have seen and from what I see on the news and talking to Palestinians I know, most do not support a feasible two-state solution because most do not see a Jewish State as being legitimate.
Carrie, I don't think it's "crap" when you're speaking about the holiest place on the planet for Jews and yet Jews are being called filthy are banned from exercising ANY religious rights on the entire Mount and then are accused falsely of "changing the status quo" which is shorthand for destroying the Al Asqa and building a Third Temple. Those are pretty serious things.... I don't know that labeling them as "crap" creates a healthy environment for discussion 
carrielogo said:
I could certainly supply a list of complaints about Egyptian and Saudia Arabian human rights violations....but this was a thread about Israel.
Yes, the latest "crap" was about Temple Mount.....
http://www.newsweek.com/jewish-man-nathan-graff-stabbed-milan-393861
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/203325#.VkZSF9KrSUk
Natan Graf, a haredi Jew in his 40s, was stabbed on Thursday evening near in Milan, Italy, sustaining minor to moderate wounds.
According to local reports, Graf, who also holds Israeli citizenship, was stabbed by a female Muslim near a kosher restaurant in the city.
The reports said the masked assailant arrived at the scene, pulled out a knife and stabbed the Jew nine times.
The victim was treated by local medical personnel and taken to hospital. The suspect fled the scene but some reports said she was subsequently apprehended and taken in for questioning.
The incident comes amid an increase in anti-Semitic attacks in Europe. A senior European Union official of rising anti-Semitism in Europe as attacks and threats against Jews continue in EU member countries.
As well, the European Jewish Congress recently released a damning report revealing a spike in anti-Semitism throughout Europe.
Last month, three Jewish men, including a rabbi, were attacked in the French city of Marseille as they were walking to synagogue on Shabbat morning. The man who attacked them with a knife was yelling anti-Semitic remarks.
I will surrender my right to have an opinion about Israel when Israel stops taking my tax dollars.
I think that if the Muslim countries had no oil and did not (some of them) occupy strategic locations, criticism of Israel would be more muted.
Klinker said:
I will surrender my right to have an opinion about Israel when Israel stops taking my tax dollars.
Who asked you to surrender your right to have opinions? Just have educated opinions based on facts, historical context and grounded in current realities.
BubbaTerp said:
Klinker said:Who asked you to surrender your right to have opinions? Just have educated opinions based on facts, historical context and grounded in current realities.
I will surrender my right to have an opinion about Israel when Israel stops taking my tax dollars.
Right. I am sure I will do just fine as long as my opinions happen to coincide with yours.
This whole practice of labeling any criticism of Israel "antisemitic" has, to my mind, done great damage to the cause of those who fight real antisemitism.
Well, I for one do not label criticism of Israel as anti-Semitic. I am pretty harsh in my criticism of Netanyahu, the Haredi in general in Israel, the religious parties who are parasites on the State, etc.
What I am troubled by are the people who solely focus on Israel and ignore so much else.
Israel does tend to be held to a higher standard--similar to that of the US and western Europe--than its neighbors.
mfpark said:
What I am troubled by are the people who solely focus on Israel and ignore so much else.
Klinker said:
BubbaTerp said:Right. I am sure I will do just fine as long as my opinions happen to coincide with yours.
Klinker said:Who asked you to surrender your right to have opinions? Just have educated opinions based on facts, historical context and grounded in current realities.
I will surrender my right to have an opinion about Israel when Israel stops taking my tax dollars.
This whole practice of labeling any criticism of Israel "antisemitic" has, to my mind, done great damage to the cause of those who fight real antisemitism.
That is a pretty presumptive comment and I take umbrage.
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